Multiple Questions Regarding Gouldian Mutations

[Colt]

Chris103 finchandlovebird wilkifam debbie276 and anyone else who'd like to chime in.

I am going to list the current pairs I have set up for breeding. Under each pair I will put what the genetic calculator says I should get (not worried about percentages) and what I have actually gotten under that.

There are a few babies that shouldn't have been colored the way they were and it has me stumped. I'll list the males first followed by the hens. Also if I screw up an abbreviation or don't have the colors written out correctly please correct me. So here goes:

BH WB dfSB x BH PB YB - The haven't produced anything as they are both molting. I was told I'd get silver birds from this pairing but the calculator disagrees. It says I should get:

50% (males) BH PB/WB dfYB/BB
50% (females) BH PB/WB YB/BB

So what in the world do I have to do in order to get Silvers?

RH PB sfBB (Pastel or Dilute) x BH WB YB - This pair hatched out their first three chicks this morning and promptly tossed them after sitting on infertile clutches for months they've decided to be great brooders, but terrible parents...Not sure on the little ones' colors as I just warmed them up and popped them under a hen on chicks a few days older...

25% (males) RH/BH PB/WB sfYB/BB
25% (males) RH/BH PB/WB dfYB/BB
25% (females) RH/BH PB/WB GB/BB
25% (females) RH/BH PB/WB YB/BB

Now I did have this male paired previously with a serial killer who is no longer wasting cage space and feed at my house and has gone on to be a potential show bird somewhere else. This pairing was: RH PB sfBB (Pastel or Dilute) x RH PB GB. Now the hen I'm not 100% sure on her genotype but that was certainly her phenotype. She never produced any chicks that lived once they hatched. I only got two chicks from that pairing because I took the last two eggs and gave them to a Society pair of Fosters. These two chicks are:

RH PB GB/BB and RH PB GB/BB; however, one of the juveniles molted into adult colors now still has a very light chest, what I would consider to be a Lilac. Does that mean both of the parents would need to be split for Lilac-breasted or what? I'm sure the bird is a male as I've heard it sing but if pictures would help I can try snapping some.

RH PB GB x BH WB GB

50% (male) RH/BH PB/WB GB
50% (female) RH PB/WB GB

All of their chicks have fit into this color scheme.

YH PB GB/BB x RH PB GB/BB - I know the parents are split because they've produced blue chicks. I did not know that originally when I paired them. That blue baby was a total surprise.

12.5% (male) RH/YH PB BB
25% (male) RH/YH PB GB/BB
12.5% (male) RH/YH PB GB
12.5% (female) RH/YH PB BB
25% (female) RH/YH PB GB/BB
12.5% (female) RH/YH PB GB

Right now I know I have a juvenile who has molted into a YH PB GB(/BB?) from that pair. I don't have any other offspring molted out completely yet from them. How did I get the YH chick? Does that mean mom is split the YH?

BH PB/WB sfGB x BH PB GB

12.5% (male) BH PB GB
12.5% (male) BH PB sfGB
12.5% (male) BH PB/WB GB
12.5% (male) BH PB/WB sfGB
12.5% (female) BH PB GB
12.5% (female) BH PB/WB GB
12.5% (female) BH PB YB
12.5% (female) BH PB/WB YB

All their chicks seem to follow the rules too.

So to re-cap:

1. How do I get Silvers from a Silver?
2. Where could the Lilac-breasted male have come from with no visual LB birds in my flock? Both parents split?
3. How did I get a YH bird from a YH x RH pairing? Does that mean the hen is RH/YH?

Thank you for wading through the gobble-d-gook to make it to the end to give me answers.

[debbie276]

BH WB dfSB x BH PB YB
only way to get Pastel Blue (silver) from this pair is if the hen is split to Blue. The chicks need a Pastel AND a Blue gene from each parent.

[Colt]

Well then... When you say Pastel gene I'm not sure I'm clear on that term with that usage....

[debbie276]

RH PB sfBB (Pastel or Dilute) x BH WB YB
Should be SF Yellow Blue (SF Pastel Blue)

To get a Lilac breast both parents would have to be LB or a LB and a WB. Purple is dominate to LB and WB, LB is dominate to WB.

[debbie276]

Well then... When you say Pastel gene I'm not sure I'm clear on that term with that usage....

Pastel Blue would be the same as Yellow Blue AKA "silver".
2 Pastel genes (yellow) and 2 Blue genes make a "silver"

It gets confusing at times because "pastel"(the PB blue males with gray chin instead of black) "dilute" (the PB green males with gray chin instead of black) and "silver" (white bodied) are made up names

[debbie276]

YH PB GB/BB x RH PB GB/BB
To get YH chicks both parents have to pass on a YH gene so mom must be split to YH.

[Chris103]

I was going to chime in, but Debbie pretty much covered it! This is why we love you debbie276 !

I will say....
Reverse Genetics have been incredibly helpful to determine the exact genotype behind some of my birds. With TONS of notes, even more split bands, and countless hours tinkering on the Genetic Calculator...I've been able to figure out the genotypes for most of my "mystery" birds based of the phenotypes of their chicks. If a mystery chick pops up in a clutch, use a genetic calculator and plug in everything you know of the parents. Calculate the possible outcomes by tweaking one gene at a time until your mystery chick is shown as an outcome from the pair.

Of course recessive genes will go unnoticed until they meet their match....but with good record keeping you should be able to go back several generations and determine the possible source/carrier(s) of the mutation.

Please Note...Thanks to the worst migraine of my life and the medications to "help" it...I'm a bit loopy (not the fun kind of loopy). According to my calculations, the possibilities of making no sense whatsoever are quite high. Fair warning, Lol!

[Chris103]

Colt what Genetic Calculator are you using?

[finchmix22]

debbie276@Chris103
O.K. Thanks debbie and chris!
Now a simpler genetic question, I think. My BH.PC/WC.GB cock has 3 eggs with my BH.WC/GB hen. They can produce...???

[debbie276]

finchmix22
is the tip of the hens beak yellow? I ask because a picture you posted recently may be the same bird and it will make a difference

[debbie276]

Your chicks will all be BH
If the hen has a YTB (yellow tipped beak, which means she is genetically a YH) the chicks will all be BH/YH

Some will be PB and some will be WB (both sexes)

All will be Normal bodied (green)

[finchmix22]

debbie276
Here is another pic of Jenna. When she was younger, she definitely had a YTB, then, it was not as clear. Now, she has breeding beak that is darkened.

[KarenB]

finchmix22, She is a pretty girl.

[KarenB]

I have a male and female that are visually red headed, purple chested and green backed, and of their first five babies, one is going to be yellow headed with YTB and purple chest, and one is going to be white chested with red head. I'm assuming that both parents are split for both yellow head and white chest in order to throw those two combos. Is that right?

[debbie276]

finchmix22
Very pretty BH YTB, so now when you calculate her offspring remember she is genetically YH.