Two-toned feathers

[Raleighwheels]

Okay, this might just be me grasping at straws and making things up in my head, but I had two young societies die within 48 hours. I'm starting to wonder if it is genetic and not something external. The one thing that the two babies had in common, aside from being from the same clutch, is that they had this weird two-tones feather thing going on. I never thought to take any pictures until now. The bird pictured is another one from the nest. You can see that there are dark brown feathers, but there is a part that is lighter than the rest. That isn't a separate feather, half or part of a feather will be dark and another part will be much lighter. Maybe I'm going crazy..

[lnlovesorange]

I'm no expert, but I know my fledges feathers were lighter/darker in spots because they were in their juvenile molt, so they had new feathers coming in across their entire body. Coudl this be why your birds had "two-toned" feathers? I don't know a lot about societies so I don't even know if they molt the same way Zebras do. I just assumed, and just trying to offer up an explanation. My eye sight is HORRIBLE. So unfortunately in the photos you provided I really can't see what you are talking about. Just figured I'd offer my two cents about feather growing because they are young... but I'm really not sure. It does seem to me that there may be some gentics or some force working against thise babies as it does seem peculiar to lose 2 in such a short period of time and both from the same clutch... How is this baby doing (the deceaseds' sibling) Does he seem to be fairly "normal" as far as flying and feathering up, eating, drinking etc? Maybe someone on the forum can chime in... maybe the've run into something similar. I know lovezebs has a "special" canary and also from the same parents she lost "fly free little" one ( Maybe she will have some insight to this oddness. Or it could just be coincidence. Also, I know Dylan & Ginene have societies dylan is Sheather, I'm not sure what Ginene's is. But delray is her nephew, and Brian is the bomb.com so he'll give you her @ name!!! He also has societies and is pretty knowledgeable (<3 you Brian!) But possibly they could help you out. If it is sometihng I sure hope you get to the bottom of it so you don't have to go through the pain of losing anymore babies. Good luck.

[Raleighwheels]

I'm no expert, but I know my fledges feathers were lighter/darker in spots because they were in their juvenile molt, so they had new feathers coming in across their entire body. Coudl this be why your birds had "two-toned" feathers? I don't know a lot about societies so I don't even know if they molt the same way Zebras do. I just assumed, and just trying to offer up an explanation. My eye sight is HORRIBLE. So unfortunately in the photos you provided I really can't see what you are talking about. Just figured I'd offer my two cents about feather growing because they are young... but I'm really not sure. It does seem to me that there may be some gentics or some force working against thise babies as it does seem peculiar to lose 2 in such a short period of time and both from the same clutch... How is this baby doing (the deceaseds' sibling) Does he seem to be fairly "normal" as far as flying and feathering up, eating, drinking etc? Maybe someone on the forum can chime in... maybe the've run into something similar. I know lovezebs has a "special" canary and also from the same parents she lost "fly free little" one ( Maybe she will have some insight to this oddness. Or it could just be coincidence. Also, I know Dylan & Ginene have societies dylan is Sheather, I'm not sure what Ginene's is. But delray is her nephew, and Brian is the bomb.com so he'll give you her @ name!!! He also has societies and is pretty knowledgeable (<3 you Brian!) But possibly they could help you out. If it is sometihng I sure hope you get to the bottom of it so you don't have to go through the pain of losing anymore babies. Good luck.

Thanks, the little one in the picture seems okay. But, I'm become so paranoid and am watching it like a hawk. It's eating fine, and cuddling up with the rest of its family. The feathers seem a little ruffled, and frayed in spots, but I'm expecting them to be going into the first molt any day now. The other baby that is still alive and not pictured doesn't have the two-toned feathers, and seems to be thriving very well.

[Raleighwheels]

The bird pictured just succumbed to the same fate as the other two toned birds. There weren't any visible symptoms this time.

[Sally]

So sorry this is happening to you. I know that sometimes babies will have some white feathers (not pied) that can be attributed to nutritional deficiencies, and the same goes for adult birds. I wonder if there could be any reason that these three didn't get the same amount of food as the other one?

[Raleighwheels]

Here's a picture of the most recent death..











Potentially unsettling images!

[Smurf]

Something doesn't seem right about the juveniles, from your first photo the juvenile on outside didn't look right and my first thought was he wouldn't survive which is unfortunately what happened. The feathers just don't look like the're growing normaly which could be a genetic factor as you suspect.

Is this the parents first clutch ? as if they had previous normal clutches it would virtualy rule out a genetic problem due to 3 loses in a single clutch.
How old were they 3 juveniles when then died ? any others perish in nest ?

[Raleighwheels]

Something doesn't seem right about the juveniles, from your first photo the juvenile on outside didn't look right and my first thought was he wouldn't survive which is unfortunately what happened. The feathers just don't look like the're growing normaly which could be a genetic factor as you suspect.

Is this the parents first clutch ? as if they had previous normal clutches it would virtualy rule out a genetic problem due to 3 loses in a single clutch.
How old were they 3 juveniles when then died ? any others perish in nest ?

The three that died were around three months old. There weren't any dead in the nest. There is one more juvenile left from the clutch, but it doesn't appear to have the two tones. I bred this pair once before and got two healthy birds from it.

[cindy]

If your birds are dying after fledging it could be either yeast, bacterial, protozoa or parasites.... did you examine their bodies, were and are they thin, very sharp keel bone.... take the body, wet the feathers pushing all the feathers back as far as you can to the sides exposing everything from the neck to vent... often discoloration or issues can be seen in the abdomen indicating possible reasons they passed away. Post a picture here. Dropping picture close up will help.

[Raleighwheels]

If your birds are dying after fledging it could be either yeast, bacterial, protozoa or parasites.... did you examine their bodies, were and are they thin, very sharp keel bone.... take the body, wet the feathers pushing all the feathers back as far as you can to the sides exposing everything from the neck to vent... often discoloration or issues can be seen in the abdomen indicating possible reasons they passed away. Post a picture here. Dropping picture close up will help.

I actually contacted Garrie Landry last night about this. He said that the two tone feathers is a result of them not being able to produce the right amino acids, specifically lysine. He said it was nothing to do with the diet, but rather the birds themselves.

[Raleighwheels]

Here's the best picture that I could get.







Graphic..

[Sally]

I actually contacted Garrie Landry last night about this. He said that the two tone feathers is a result of them not being able to produce the right amino acids, specifically lysine. He said it was nothing to do with the diet, but rather the birds themselves.

So does this mean it is a genetic thing? Is he saying that the birds weren't able to produce the lysine?

[Raleighwheels]

I actually contacted Garrie Landry last night about this. He said that the two tone feathers is a result of them not being able to produce the right amino acids, specifically lysine. He said it was nothing to do with the diet, but rather the birds themselves.

So does this mean it is a genetic thing? Is he saying that the birds weren't able to produce the lysine?

He said that the birds themselves weren't producing lysine, but said that he didn't believe it to be genetic.

[MiaCarter]

Oh no!
This is so awful.
I'm glad you got an answer as to what was happening.

I agree with Smurf that the feathering looked abnormal in the photo of the last bird while he was alive. Poor little guy.

The lysine deficiency was actually the first thing that came to mind when you mentioned the feathers, as I've seen that in a couple of wild birds who came to me while I was a wildlife rehabber. None ever survived. (Not surprising, as by the time a normal citizen notices a sick bird on the sidewalk or whatever, they're usually near the end.)

Another telltale for lysine deficiency -- aside from the two-toned feathers -- is the lack of extreme thinness and overall sicklyness that you tend to see in a bird who's suffering from malnutrition (which can also cause white/discolored feathering) or a chronic illness/infection.
So in short, you tend to see....
-discolored feathers + normal/close to normal weight = lysine deficiency
-discolored feathers + underweight = malnutrition or chronic illness/infection.
(Exceptions exist, of course, but that's the general rule I've found. Though I should note that that's for wild birds, where generalized malnutrition is most common. With wild birds you don't usually see the narrow deficiencies that you see in domestic birds that are fed improperly )

It's odd timing, as I just happened upon an article about this the other day. It's quite scientific, but interesting:
http://www.roudybush.com/index.cfm?fuse ... ticle_id=5

If you're feeding a proper diet - and I assume you are - I think the chances of this being related to some sort of genetic flaw are very, very high. Simply due to the number of affected birds in the clutch, their age and the fact that they all died at about the same age. Lysine deficiency takes time to become fatal, so I think it's likely they never processed it properly. When you take into account slight individual differences and different hatch times, it sounds like they all died within a couple of days of each other in terms of age. That would be consistent with birds who never processed lysine properly.

Did Garry mention why he thought it wasn't genetic? I'd be interested to know why he thought that, as I know he's super knowledgeable (and to be honest, it looks almost certainly genetic to me. So I'm wondering what I'm missing! LOL)

Out of an abundance of caution, I'm not sure I'd breed that pair again or the surviving sibling. (While not affected, he could be a carrier of a genetic flaw that could be passed on.)

I'm so sorry this happened. So sad.

[Raleighwheels]

Thanks for the info. He never explained why it wasn't genetic. Either way, I'm going to be cautious and split the pair up. And thanks for the article! I saw that while I was researching, but have yet to read it.