Pied Society to Self via selective breeding. Possible?

[hanabi]

I hear there is no such thing as a silly question, so here we go

I have quite a number of Society finches but they are all pied varieties. For whatever reason I much prefer the self varieties, but they are quite difficult to purchase here in Japan (while their pied cousins are a dime a dozen). Some example images of my Societies are as follows:







So, here is my question: is it possible to produce a "pure" self Society by selectively breeding, over many generations, from pied Societies? Or is it most likely that some amount of "pied" genetics will remain even after many crossing? I'm hoping that it is possible because this would make a rather interesting experiment.

Thanks in advance for any comments, tips, or links to further reading you may have.

Ross

[lovezebs]

hanabi

Hey Ross

I have no idea if it's possible or not, but it would definitely be an interesting multi-generational experiment.

Just a quick question here, is your bird in picture #2, a Zebra/Socie hybrid? Something about the beak shape makes me wonder (?)

Good luck with your endeavours if you do decide to try.

P.S. By the way, your birds are beautiful .

[Sally]

From what I've been told, pied is always present, once it is in the genes. I have a friend who specializes in self Societies, and she said that when pied is in the genes, it may not show up in a Self for several generations, and then all of a sudden, here is a pied baby. It may not be pied as we think of, having only one little spot of white, but that tells her that there is pied in that line. Even here in the U.S., where there are lots of selfs available, breeders have to watch for the pied gene to show up in new birds, so they can remove that line from their breeding program.

With pieds like yours, I would guess it would be impossible to produce a self, even one carrying pied genes.

BTW, that is true, there is no such thing as a silly question! That is how we all learn from each other, so ask away. Most of us are not experts, and even experts will tell you that they are always learning something new.

[Smurf]

I don't think it would be possible, there's both recessive and dominant forms of pied with both forms often being present in same bird, as you say pieds are so common in Japan then your birds have most likely had 2 x pied parents over many generations which would virtually eliminate any chance of hidden non pied genes.


BTW, i prefer the pieds especially like the 1 in your 2nd photo

[slwatson]

hanabi

Your crested pied is very cute! I had pied societies and self societies, and when they bred, their babies all had some type of white marks on them to show the pied in their genetics. I no longer have pied, because I'm more interested in self societies at the moment, but I think they're both beautiful birds.

[hanabi]

lovezebs
Sally
Smurf
slwatson

Oh you guys are no fun at all

I had suspicions I may not be able to weed out the pied gene(s). In all seriousness thanks for the above advice, because you saved me from increasing the global Society finch population by 50% trying to accomplish something that probably can't be done. I guess if all the pied societies here have the same dominant gene then I'd be mating dominant to dominant resulting in dominant, forever. No chance of ever breeding dominant genes out.

Just a quick question here, is your bird in picture #2, a Zebra/Socie hybrid?

No idea actually Elana. All my Societies came from my finch mentor. He only had a couple of Zebs and he is not the type to cross-breed species, but perhaps his source of Societies had a hybrid amongst them. I have to admit I always thought that that particular Society looked 'different', but I just put it down to my inexperience. The shape of the line from the head to the beak does not have the usual smooth arc that Societies usually have, does it? And he does seem to be a bit 'stockier' than my other Societies too.

Your crested pied is very cute!

Thank you, and I agree, he's one of my most handsome males. And almost a 'self' to boot He was going to become one of my stud males in my breeding program, but shucks, he's going to miss out on a lot of fun now

Cheers from sunny but cold Japan.

[lovezebs]

hanabi

Well Ross, it was an interesting thought anyway, sigh....

I'd still keep an eye on #2 (he interests me).

Seeing as I can't send you the actual thing, sending you a picture of some pretty kids

[hanabi]

lovezebs

sending you a picture of some pretty kids

Thanks for that. And how nice, they all appear to be self Societies. Are you skiting Elana? Rubbing a bit of salt into my wounds?

The babe in the first photo is particularly gorgeous. Is that a chestnut self Society Elana?

[lovezebs]

hanabi

No salt intended, Ross (apologies if it came across that way).
Not sure if they are selfs or not, just sharing some more solid coloured birdlings.

I have to say, that I am rather fond of the whites .

Are there any solid coloured Socies in Japan at all, (that could perhaps be ordered?

[hanabi]

hanabi

No salt intended, Ross (apologies if it came across that way).

Just pulling your leg Elana

Are there any solid coloured Socies in Japan at all, (that could perhaps be ordered?)

Yes there are some, at least they look 'self', but after this discussion I'm now worried what genes "lurk within". There are also European Societies, which I understand are not the original Japanese Society finch but a "Euro mix" of three Munia species (or is it Lonchura?). E.g.:

http://www.kittou-pet.jp/products/detai ... ct_id=5894

Yes that is about $200 for a pair. Chocolate Euro Societies are around $60/pr though:

http://www.kittou-pet.jp/products/detai ... ct_id=4658

However, any of the self varieties are rarely on sale it seems. Perhaps it's a winter thing.

I think I would prefer the Japanese selfs because I hear they make better fosters than the Euros.

Cheers.

[lovezebs]

hanabi

BEAUTIFUL BIRDS!!!

I was going to say wow to those gorgeous Fawns, then I saw the Blacks....even a bigger WOW.

There is a fellow here in town advertising these guys on kijiji..... but I happen to know, that they are well over a year old, lol. Still pretty though .

"I have a few beautiful black brown self society finches. Beautiful showy birds, no white on face. 40 each. All 3 for 100$ Under a year old."

[adriathica]

I have a pair like the babe from the first photo.....somebody can tell me what is the colour name ?

[hanabi]

adriathica

I think that phenotype is called chocolate pied.