Diamond Firetail Finch Genetics?

Learn about mutations and expected breeding outcomes.
Post Reply
User avatar
hanabi
Mature
Mature
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:24 am
Location: Shiga, Japan
Contact:

Diamond Firetail Finch Genetics?

Post by hanabi » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:28 pm

My pair of phenotypically normal Diamond Firetail finches have, in their first clutch, produced a light coloured chick; what a surprise considering the parents of this pair are also phenotypically normal. I guess they both have "split something" hiding in their genes. Not sure if this new light-coloured chick is a silver, fawn, or cinnamon, but time will tell (the nest is too dark to take a photo).

In any case I just realised I have little to no knowledge of Diamond Firetail genetics, and a search of the Internet has turned up very little concrete information. What I am searching for is a list of mutations and their type (sex-linked, autosomal recessive, etc.). I would also like to know how the different mutations interact, i.e., do they affect the same gene allele (like a Gouldian's chest colour gene pair expressing a paired combination among purple, lilac, and white), do they affect different alleles independently (i.e. for the Star Finch, the Fawn and Cinnamon genes are separate and operate independently, and thus a Star Finch can be both phenotypically fawn and cinnamon), or do they affect different alleles but dependently (like the Gouldian's Yellow head gene being controlled by the separate Red-Black head gene).

So far the list of Diamond Firetail mutations I've gathered is:

Yellow Tail: autosomal recessive.

Fawn: one site says sex-linked recessive, while another states autosomal recessive.

Cinnamon: sex-linked recessive.

Isabel: sex-linked

Pastel: autosomal recessive

Pied: ??

Silver: ??

White: ??

What I would like to ask the forum is:

(1) Are the above classifications (sex-linked or autosomal) correct?
(2) Are pied, silver, and white, sex-linked or autosomal?
(3) How do fawn, cinnamon, isabel, pastel, silver, and white interact? How many alleles are affected here? For several mutations affecting the same allele, which is dominant? I.e., is it possible to have a fawn and cinnamon Diamond (like a Star finch)? Or both fawn and silver?

Also, while I have your attention, what is this mutation:

Image

According to my notes this guy does not fit any of the mutations fawn, cinnamon, isabel, or pastel.

As always, thanks in advance for your comments.
Ross at Lake Biwa, Japan
African Silverbill, Chestnut-Breasted Munia, Common Waxbill, Diamond Finch, Forbes Parrotfinch, Gold-Breasted Waxbill, Gouldian Finch, Masked Finch, Owl Finch, Painted Firetail Finch, Pintailed Parrotfinch, Plumhead Finch, Red-Billed Firefinch, Red-browed Firetail Finch, Scaly-Breasted Munia, Self Society Finch, Star Finch.

User avatar
lovezebs
Mod Extraordinaire
Mod Extraordinaire
Posts: 18214
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:51 am
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada

Re: Diamond Firetail Finch Genetics?

Post by lovezebs » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:01 pm

hanabi

Hi Ross,

I think the above picture, is a painting, a drawing, or has been photo shopped, not a true mutation.
I came across a couple of pictures of this, that all go back to this one picture...

The nearest I could find, were these guys...
Attachments
20170309_180958-320x245.png
20170309_180958-320x245.png (133.15 KiB) Viewed 1663 times
20170309_180251-320x252.png
20170309_180251-320x252.png (82.17 KiB) Viewed 1663 times
20170309_181706-247x209.png
20170309_181706-247x209.png (94.96 KiB) Viewed 1663 times
~Elana~

Linnies~ Canaries ~ Zebras ~ Societies ~ Gouldians ~ Orange Cheeks ~ Shaft Tails ~ Strawberries ~ Red Cheek Cordon Bleu ~ Goldbreasts ~ Red Brows ~ Owls ~ Budgies ~ Diamond Firetails ~ Javas ~ Forbes Parrot Finches ~

GouldianGuy
Wonder Wooer
Wonder Wooer
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:44 pm
Location: Newfoundland

Re: Diamond Firetail Finch Genetics?

Post by GouldianGuy » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:12 pm

that bottom picture is zoomed out version of the above...

User avatar
hanabi
Mature
Mature
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:24 am
Location: Shiga, Japan
Contact:

Re: Diamond Firetail Finch Genetics?

Post by hanabi » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:50 am

I can confirm that Silver follows autosomal recessive generics.

And after much investigation I think I understand the confusion behind the use of the terms Fawn and Cinnamon. According to veteran finch aficionados, the application of the terms "Fawn" or "Cinnamon" to the brownish dilute state of finches is determined by whether the genetics are autosomal or sex-linked. Fawn should always be an autosomal trait and should never be used to describe a sex-linked mode of inheritance. Similarly, Cinnamon should always be a sex-linked trait and should never be used to describe an autosomal mode of inheritance.

Thus:
Owl inch - Cinnamon (because it is sex-linked recessive)
Painted Firetail finch- Fawn (because it is autosomal recessive)
Plumhead finch - Fawn (because it is autosomal recessive)
Diamond Firetail finch- Fawn (autosomal) and Cinnamon (sex-linked)
Star finch - Fawn (autosomal) and Cinnamon (sex-linked)
etc.

Unfortunately there has been some mis-application of the two terms, for example, Fawn Zebra finches are actually sex-linked and should be called Cinnamon Zebras I guess, but the Fawn term is now too widely known to change it.

So, I continue my investigation of Diamond finch genetics.
Ross at Lake Biwa, Japan
African Silverbill, Chestnut-Breasted Munia, Common Waxbill, Diamond Finch, Forbes Parrotfinch, Gold-Breasted Waxbill, Gouldian Finch, Masked Finch, Owl Finch, Painted Firetail Finch, Pintailed Parrotfinch, Plumhead Finch, Red-Billed Firefinch, Red-browed Firetail Finch, Scaly-Breasted Munia, Self Society Finch, Star Finch.

sparrowsong98
Perfect Partner
Perfect Partner
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 9:35 am

Re: Diamond Firetail Finch Genetics?

Post by sparrowsong98 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:48 am

lovezebs I always wondered why they were called fire tails. Now I know. It confused me. Just like the green singers. I still remember when I discovered that they weren't really green, but they were other colors! It was just earth shattering. Why call a grey bird a green one? I thought.
Oh and Elana, as someone mentioned up above, that last picture is the same one as the picture that the comment above yours posted, just zoomed out.
I currently own:
An Australian shepherd
Many chickens
4 goats
A cat
And a bunny

User avatar
lovezebs
Mod Extraordinaire
Mod Extraordinaire
Posts: 18214
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:51 am
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada

Re: Diamond Firetail Finch Genetics?

Post by lovezebs » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:25 am

hanabi

Hi Ross,

How are you, and how is Japan holding out with the North Korean threat looming?

Regarding the Fawn and Cinnamon issue.... in most cases people don't look very deeply into the genetics, they just call it as they see it :D .

Good luck with your Diamond Finch genetic investigatuions.... now if you could only tell me whether I have a true pair, :roll:

Take care.
~Elana~

Linnies~ Canaries ~ Zebras ~ Societies ~ Gouldians ~ Orange Cheeks ~ Shaft Tails ~ Strawberries ~ Red Cheek Cordon Bleu ~ Goldbreasts ~ Red Brows ~ Owls ~ Budgies ~ Diamond Firetails ~ Javas ~ Forbes Parrot Finches ~

User avatar
lovezebs
Mod Extraordinaire
Mod Extraordinaire
Posts: 18214
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:51 am
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada

Re: Diamond Firetail Finch Genetics?

Post by lovezebs » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:30 am

sparrowsong98

Green Singers, are actually not really green, nor are thet grey, lol (you might be thinking of Grey Singers).
Attachments
20150116_152448.jpg
20140831_102142-2.jpg
~Elana~

Linnies~ Canaries ~ Zebras ~ Societies ~ Gouldians ~ Orange Cheeks ~ Shaft Tails ~ Strawberries ~ Red Cheek Cordon Bleu ~ Goldbreasts ~ Red Brows ~ Owls ~ Budgies ~ Diamond Firetails ~ Javas ~ Forbes Parrot Finches ~

Post Reply