Gouldian: Lilac, or "dirty White" chest?

[hanabi]

I have a yellow-back Gouldian cock that I had always considered to be white-chested, but on occasion when I have observed him I've seen a pink tinge to his chest. Especially recently his chest colour appears to be a deeper pink than when I first obtained him, so I'm a little confused as to whether I have what some call a "dirty white"-chested, or in reality a pale lilac-chested Gouldian.

Take a look at this pic:




"A" on the left is a true lilac-chest from an experienced breeder of Gouldians. "B" in the centre of the pic is the subject of this post, being an image from about 1.5 years ago. "B" on the right is the same bird but taken recently (I removed his blue leg ring). Yes he is going through moult so he looks a bit haggard, but I think you can see his chest colour has deepened slightly over time. Contrasting the chest colour to that of the white on his neck (which really does look white) we can see that his chest colour is off-white and is close to the lilac of "A" on the left.

So, I was thinking "B" might actually be a quite pale lilac-chested Gould .... until I dug a bit deeper by viewing his offspring. If you take a look at this link you can see this "B" Gould, and at the bottom of the page you can see all his offspring.

Gouldian cock "B" and his offspring

I paired him with a white-chested hen, so genetically speaking his offspring should be either all lilac-chested, or a mix of lilac-chested and white-chested (assuming he is split-for-white). Yet they all appear to have white chests, although the two cock offspring are a little off-white. It is also possible that, so far, he has produced only white-chested offspring (a statistical anomaly, so to speak).

In the end I'm quite confused. Do I have an "dirty-white" Gould, or a lilac Gould with a particularly pale version of lilac (which on hen offspring might look white)?

Any and all comments are most welcome.

Cheers,

Ross

[lovezebs]

hanabi

I would say very pale 'lilac' and a gorgeous looking bird Ross.

When I look at the baby pictures, some offspring appear to have some tint in their chest colour, but it looks almost cream colour in a couple of them. They look still quite young in these pictures. Did they mature with the same chest colours?

Off the subject...
The white baby, 2nd picture from the right is absolutely lovely.

[hanabi]

I should have messaged the Gouldian big guns debbie276 and GouldianGuy in my previous email; I'm sure they would have some relevant information too.

lovezebs

Thanks for your reply Elana.

[They look still quite young in these pictures.]

Yes the photos show juvies in a few cases and unfortunately I sold several of them before getting the chance to re-photo them. I always remember them as having white chests even after they moulted, but very pale lilac may have been present in some cases. I just re-imaged hen offspring #15 (brown+green leg ring in the centre) along with two others with white chests for comparison:



There may be a touch of colour shift from white but if so it is very hard to see.

PS I deliberately use "chest" rather than "breast" (the acronym(?) B for both Breast and Body can confuse), and "yellow" rather than the meaningless term "pastel", for clarity.

Cheers,

Ross

[lovezebs]

hanabi

Sorry I couldn't be of more help

What do you make of this bird, Ross?

It was bought, as Black head White breast Blue back male...

However, in certain lights, the chest has the faintest lilac tint to it.
Also, this bird has yet to sing (?)
It's 3 years old by the way.

[hanabi]

lovezebs

Hi Elana.

What do you make of this bird, Ross?

Hey, you're asking a newbie you know

Ummm. Hasn't sung in three years you say. No dancing either? Sounds like a hen.

Does its beak ever turn black? If yes, a hen. If not, a non-singing (low hormone?) cock perhaps? The beak does look like a cock's at the moment.

in certain lights, the chest has the faintest lilac tint to it.

Does it only look slightly lilac under fluro lighting? Fluro lighting has some UV content so that can make white look a little lilac. The photo you show suggests the faint lilac of a hen though.

So in the end I have a bob both ways

I'm looking forward to comments from the experts, for both our sakes

Cheers Elana.

Ross

[lovezebs]

hanabi

LOL...

Only had him for 3 weeks, not the whole 3 years
And he hasn't sung in those 3 weeks. No song, no dance, just sits there looking pretty.

So you see the faint rosey tint as well, it's not just my old eyes going funny

Well, let's hope our debbie pops in today

[GouldianGuy]

I'm no expert on phenotype but I'd have to say that it looks to me that you have a genetically lilac bird... (possiby split to white?)

Probably the best way to find out would be to cross with some normals - BH/WC/GB and if you end up with ANY lilac offspring your question is solved.

[lovezebs]

GouldianGuy

Is that answer for Ross, for Elana, or for both of us, lol???

[GouldianGuy]

Haha I meant Ross but now I say both.

If my understanding of the white phenotype is complete absence of enzyme/protein required to produce breast colour

I think also because your bird is yellow, it too has a loss of pheomelanin (i think thats right), therefore the "darkness" of the lilac is muted.

It is explained well here:
http://www.gouldiansgalore.com/breast-color.html

[hanabi]

GouldianGuy

Thanks for your reply GouldianGuy.

Probably the best way to find out would be to cross with some normals - BH/WC/GB and if you end up with ANY lilac offspring your question is solved.

By coincidence that is exactly what I did; the offspring you see at the bottom of this cock's webpage were all produced from a white-chested green-back hen. The problem is all the offspring will be (and were) phenotypically yellow. Hens will be yellow backs, and cocks will be green-yellow (single factor pastel) and will thus look more yellow than green due to the non-purple chest colour. And because of the yellow gene in both the cock and hen offspring we get the muted lilac again (assuming lilac is present in the chest), so I'm back to square one.

Or not quite back to square one actually. If I then cross the green-yellow cock offspring (one that has the most off-white chest) with a white-chested hen, I can produce true green-back cocks and hens, which should then show any existing lilac without its suppression.

Sounds like a fun project. If only I had more spare cages

[GouldianGuy]

Or not quite back to square one actually. If I then cross the green-yellow cock offspring (one that has the most off-white chest) with a white-chested hen, I can produce true green-back cocks and hens, which should then show any existing lilac without its suppression.

Sounds like a fun project. If only I had more spare cages

I agree completely! Nothing like nerding up aviculture!

Solution to your problem(s) - buy more cages!

[lovezebs]

hanabi

Never enough cages!
That's why I'm contemplating a free flight bird room, with only breeding birdlings in cages

[nixity]

I personally do not think he's a true Lilac. I think what you may be seeing is just minor changes in the feather color/texture which may make it LOOK different, but looking at his offspring, my vote is just that he molted out into a slightly changed WB.

True Lilac breasted birds will never molt out the lilac color - even in the case of DF Yellows. My BH LB DF Yellow never molted the lilac color out.