Gouldian, starting pair

[ac12]

Tiffany
For my first pair of Gouldians, what combo would you suggest

RH/PB/GB male + RH/PB/GB female
RH/PB/GB male + OH/PB/GB female
RH/PB/GB male + RH/WB/YB female
OH/PB/GB male + RH/WB/YB female

Since this is my first pair, I like the standard RH/PB/GB color.
And the orange head looks interesting to me.
But I also like the way a RH/WB/YB looks.

So if I can get some of the combos out of the offspring, that would be good as well. Although it might take me a while to get offsprings.

[nixity]

I guess it depends on what your long term goals are.
I would pick a mutation that you are leaning towards, and perhaps buy a pair of birds that could produce that mutation, and then some.

I.e. - you like RH WB Yellows.

So maybe look into purchasing a RH WB Hen and perhaps locate a breeder that has a RH P/W Dilute Male.
That way you could get both RH WB Yellow hens and visually yellow SF WB Males.

It's really just up to you.
The four eggs laid by that pair that I intend to ship eggs to you for are all fertile and should be hatching around the 30th-31st.
So - you will perhaps be able to get some BH PB Normals from me in terms of shipping eggs (fingers crossed that that works out!!).

In terms of the potential offspring - going exactly based on the information given, you would end up with the following.

RH/PB/GB male + RH/PB/GB female =
RH PB Normal Males and Females

RH/PB/GB male + OH/PB/GB female =
RH/OH PB Normal Males and Females

RH/PB/GB male + RH/WB/YB female =
RH Purple/White Dilute Males
RH Purple/White Normal Hens

OH/PB/GB male + RH/WB/YB female =
RH/OH Purple/White Dilute Males
RH/OH Purple/White Normal Hens

[ac12]

Breeding a GB and YB = a dilute male
Drat, not what I was hoping for.
I was hoping that the offsprings would be a mix of GB and YB.

It was good that I asked you, before I made the mistake.
Sounds like I really need to do 2 separate pairs, GB and YB. Now to decide which one to get first.

I need to go look at more photos of the different combinations
But, right now I am thinking of these combos.
RH/PB/GB + OH/PB/GB
RH/WB/YB + ?

Thanks, my societies are ready.
I have fake eggs going into the nest right now, to get them sitting.

[ac12]

Tiffany
Sorry, I misread your post.
Just let me know when you plan to ship the eggs, so I can make sure I'm home to receive it.
One thing about being out of work , I can meet the mailman.

[nixity]

Breeding a GB and YB = a dilute male
Drat, not what I was hoping for.
I was hoping that the offsprings would be a mix of GB and YB.

There are a few combinations you could shoot for to get GB and Yellows, but you would get very specific sexes with the colors.
E.G. - A DF Yellow Male x Normal Hen would yield you 100% yellow hens and Dilute Males.
But if you wanted both Yellow males and Females, I think your best choice would be to pair a Dilute Male x Yellow hen (PB). You'd get 50% Dilutes, 50% DF Yellows, 50% Yellow hens, 50% Normal Hens.

You also have to really factor breast colors into play when you're discussing the yellow mutation because a white breast on a male can change the outcome.
A SF Yellow male that is Lilac or WB will appear visually yellow, so you could also get visually yellow males by pairing a WB Yellow hen to a WB Normal male
All males would be WB SF Yellow (visually yellow).
The hens, however, would all be WB Normal like their father.

[ac12]

OH this is going to get confusing. I think I need to keep the green back and yellow back lines separate.
How about these combos:

RH/PB(WB)/GB + OH/WB/GB (normals)
- to get both RH and OH males
- to get both PB and WB males

RH/WB/YB + RH/PB/YB

I'm a bit confused, is a dilute male is a green backed but lighter in color?
This gouldian genetics is hurting my head to figure it out.

[nixity]

How about these combos:

RH/PB(WB)/GB + OH/WB/GB (normals)
- to get both RH and OH males
- to get both PB and WB males

You would only get OH birds if the RH bird was also /OH.
OH is recessive, so both parents need to possess it in order for the babies to inherit and express it.

I'm a bit confused, is a dilute male is a green backed but lighter in color?

Basically, yes A dilute is a male bird that has one copy of the yellow mutation (females can only have one to begin with, so they will always be visually yellow if they possess it).
When a purple breasted male is "SF" [Single Factor, only carries one copy] for yellow, because it is "co-dominant" to the normal green genes, they sort of fight for expression and the result is a blending, of sorts, between yellow and green.
The actual color varies from bird to bird depending on how the actual pigment is deposited, and it can even change with each molt.
It varies from a bright lime-green to more yellow popping through and a lemon-lime color instead.
You will always know for sure on the more "greenish" looking males that it is a dilute, though, because of the way the yellow gene affects the black pigment in the head - it turns it to a charcoal grey color. So particularly, the black bib under the beak turns grey on a dilute male

E.g.:

Normal
http://www.gouldiansgalore.net/my_birds ... li?i=0&s=1

Dilute:
http://www.gouldiansgalore.net/my_birds ... o?i=24&s=1

[ac12]

Hmmm the recessive trait is going to be tough to figure out. I'm going to have to check w and trust the breeder about that, since I can't see it.

Time to go build another cage.

[CandoAviary]

If I understand correctly just because you breed a green backed bird with a blue backed bird doesn't always mean that all the chicks will be split to blue... some may not inherit the blue factor at all.
I have found that you will not know if a bird is split or has inherited that gene UNTIL you breed the bird and see that the mutation/gene has been passed on to the chicks. Breeders should sell unproven pairs as possible splits. I recently saw an add that stated that they would not sell or claim split unless the bird had been bred and it was proven to carry and pass that gene.
I thought this would be a good practice for when I sell my chicks. I think a lot of claims are made on splits to drive the price up.
Am I correct in understanding this......that you do not know what the actual genetic makeup of a bird is until you breed them? If it is prior to breeding it is just speculation of the possibilities but not nescesarily the actual reality sometimes?

I have been breeding a line of RH PB GB and BH PB GB and just this year did they throw blues. I had paired 2 of my females up with RH PB GB males that I had bought without knowing thier histories. Eveidently my RH PB GB line were split to blue without me even realizing. I did not pay the higher price for splits. I guess the sellers did not know for sure that they were.
I have also paired a yellow back with a green back and have gotten regular GB besides the dilutes. I am wondering if these green backs will carry any gene as split/yellow????

[nixity]

If I understand correctly just because you breed a green backed bird with a blue backed bird doesn't always mean that all the chicks will be split to blue... some may not inherit the blue factor at all.

It doesn't work that way - unfortunately
I'll try to explain why without getting too complicated.
Blue is the result of a bird carrying two copies of a recessive mutation. Because it's the result of two recessive copies, outside of a genetic anomaly like nondisjunction (which is how children are born with Down's Syndrome), there is no way the parent can't pass on the trait to its offspring.

Think of it this way:
When a cell replicates, what basically happens is the DNA replicates and then divides - so each sister cell is essentially a mirror replica of the original cell.
With Meiosis, which is how gametes (eggs and sperm) are formed, the cells split a second time - so that the eggs and sperm have half of the normal number of chromosomes (so when egg and sperm come back together, the total number found in that organism is then present).

So let's take an example.

Let's say you have a hen that is BH PB Blue, and a cock that is RH WB Normal.

Genetically, this means the birds look like this:

Hen:
Z^b Y PP bb (Z is the sex chromosome, it has a recessive black allele, Y is the alternate sex chromosome which makes her a hen, there are two purple alleles present for breast color, and the bird is homozygous recessive (DF) for blue)

So the potential gametes (eggs) she can produce [genetically] are as follows:

Z^b P b
Y P b

Cock:
Z^R Z^R ww (Z is the sex chromosome, both have Red alleles present, there are two white alleles present for breast color, and there are no copies of blue present)

So the potential sperms he can produce are as follows:
Z^R w
Z^R w

Now, you add those two gametic possibilities together in all possible combinations (egg + sperm):

Z^b P b [+] Z^R w

Y P b [+] Z^R w

=

Z^b Z^R Pw b = RH/BH, Purple/White, Normal/Blue Male

and

Z^R Y Pw b = RH, Purple/White, Normal/Blue Hen

I recently saw an add that stated that they would not sell or claim split unless the bird had been bred and it was proven to carry and pass that gene.

Yes - because if you pair two /Blues together, you can't guarantee the babies that are /Blue versus the ones that are just Normal without first test breeding them.
This is different from pairing a Blue to a Normal or a Blue to a /Blue where it is definitive that non-blue babies are /Blue.

I have also paired a yellow back with a green back and have gotten regular GB besides the dilutes. I am wondering if these green backs will carry any gene as split/yellow????

Yellow is never carried "silently" since it is not recessive, but co-dominant. It will always display itself on the bird - Both by virtue of affecting the black, or visually appearing dilute or yellow, it will manifest itself on every bird that inherits it, so no bird can really be "split" for yellow without you knowing it.

What likely happened is the yellow male you paired wasn't DF Yellow, but SF. It happens a lot.
Either that, or I'm not sure if you colony breed, but it can be virtually impossible to determine the genetic background of a bird bred in a colony setting because the hens will often not be monogamous and other hens will also invade and lay eggs in other birds nests.
I have never known individuals colony breeding Goulds to not have these problems.

[CandoAviary]

Well....again you have supplied me with a wealth of information. Again thankyou It is not hard for me to get confused with the genetic thing....but I am getting a grasp , little by little
I don't colony breed. I breed in an ABBA cage bank with dividers or individual cages. I have a hard enough time figuring out these without dealing with misbreedings. I use my large aviaries for grow out so far or for exercise during non breeding times..(the book I bought from you is much easier than my index cards )
Anyway, I guess I have a DF yellow... didn't know
Love this thread... keep the info coming, I am like a sponge

By the way, my gouldian's eyes are still red. How long will it take for them to turn dark? It is tracking the food so he is not blind. The parents to this clutch are Hen OH PB GB and OH PB SFGB (dilute) not sure how to abbreviate that.
I have the one white chick and looks like 4 dilutes. No greens....

[nixity]

Well....again you have supplied me with a wealth of information. Again thankyou It is not hard for me to get confused with the genetic thing....but I am getting a grasp , little by little

By the way, my gouldian's eyes are still red. How long will it take for them to turn dark? It is tracking the food so he is not blind. The parents to this clutch are Hen OH PB GB and OH PB SFGB (dilute) not sure how to abbreviate that.
I have the one white chick and looks like 4 dilutes. No greens....

One step at a time, right?!

Hmmmm.. I would have thought they would have started to turn by now. I assume s/he is feathering out now, right? Do you have an updated photo of her/him?
Maybe you do have a mutant on your hands!!