Newbie having no success with canaries...advice appreciated!

[KavaDulce]

Atbird Wow, that food looks amazing. Ugh, I BET there was something up with that bag of food I bought. I wish I had kept it. I have the male in a warm room, but he's not puffed up like the first one was. Just seems to be wasting away.

@MiaCarter I didn't know about Teflon till I bought birds, and boy was I not happy! How something that toxic is allowed to be manufactured blows my mind. I'm sure it has to affect us humans over time. So the birds will just eat the charcoal? Very cool. I keep some in my medicine cabinet for the family, but will look for the bird kind. In regards to the first male's legs, he WAS dragging them behind him. Is there a chance he might have fractured them one time when I was catching him to give him medicine. I tried to minimize the stress by catching him in the dark. And he was perching after I put him back, but maybe? The two cages are brand new from Petco. Just standard flight cages. I only use bottled water for the birds and my family. Not sure if you heard about the water disaster around here, a chemical leak into the river, (we made it on national news for all of 10 seconds), but I never trust the water in this state. I'll check out that list you sent.

@Smurf with the male that died, I "thought" I heard a clicking once. He definitely had trouble breathing, and his last chirp before he went silent sounded more like a croak. It's why I treated from ASM. I used the S76 from ladygouldian. The standard treatment is to add it to water, but I followed the "severe" symptom treatment of a drop to the neck. I've often wondered if I overdosed him. All the bottle says is Ivermectin 0.8g/L, Slippery Elm 5 mg/L. I've never tried soaked seed, but maybe I left them their greens too long? I would put a leaf in about midmorning, then take it out before bed. I didn't figure it spoiled quickly like egg.

@dan78 I hope the female is ok. She is still chipper and active, but of course any loose stool she has scares me. I've been adding extra poppy seed to her mix, taken away her greens, and am going to treat her along with the male when the Ronex arrives. Then maybe treat them both for ASM. I just hope the male makes it that long. For some reason, on Sunday the male made it off the floor of his cage to his swing and sang ALL DAY LONG. Now he is on the floor again and looks totally exhausted. I did move the male upstairs in a spare bedroom. Even in his emaciated state, he would occasionally try to sing back to the female in the other room. Poor little thing. I might have to give up having a canary in my kitchen. I hate that, as I spend most of my time, there. But the risks outweigh the benefits I'm afraid. The greens I buy are organic and then I soak them in my sink with vinegar and sometimes a few drops of GSE for around 10 minutes. Sound okay? This is how I normally clean the produce for my family.

Here's a question. So I can maybe presume the problem isn't the water, or the use of Teflon. The only other unnatural thing I use is those Cascade packets in the dishwasher. Though I'm not sure what could be used instead? Also, I just found a picture of the breeders card regarding the male. It looks as though he was the only survivor of 5 eggs. I'm not a breeder, but are those odds normal? He made an off-hand comment that if all his babies survived he wouldn't be able to sell them all. I understand that in nature only the strongest survive, but sheesh! Thanks again!

[Sheather]

This is all so unusual and tragic! I am so sorry you've had such bad luck with your birds. I don't honestly know what is causing your symptoms, though I really doubt it has anything to do with greens. My canaries will hapilly eat a portion of greens as large as they are every day, and they've done this every day since I've had them, as I put out a huge platter of vegetables, berries, and apple slices almost daily that everyone can eat free-will, and I've never had loose stools or illness result. I just wash my produce in the sink under cold water if it's non-organic and my guys have never gotten ill from it.

I've never had air sac mites so I am not sure how to treat them. I have had red bird mites and they were exterminated completely after one treatment of Avian Insect Liquidator - I think it's the best all-around insecticide for birds around, but as air sac mites are internal I doubt it works for them.

As for the odds of survival, that is low if all the eggs hatched. I've only had one clutch of canaries so far, and the mother laid four eggs, hatched two, but only weaned one - the younger baby only lived one day, sadly. So maybe it is not too odd.

[dan78]

Since male is upstairs there has been signs of improvement on the odd occasion this is good as there is still time sort this out. Sorry about revisiting about the greens and water but sometimes going through these things again can help pick things up overlooked the first time. Sanitising the greens is very helpful so they are washed properly so there shouldn't be any residue left on them from the farm. Charcoal was mentioned earlier I would consider this if it is a toxin this can help reduce the amount while the little guy fights, but I'm a bit stumped as to what it is . It may even be a bacterial infection in the stomach to bowels that has taken on a rampage due to maybe a toxic input also which is like a snow ball rolling down the hill as time goes on it slowly gets bigger or worse in your case. Still thinking.

[MiaCarter]

Hi Karla!

I like the idea of moving the male to the same area as the female. Maybe if it's an environmental thing, moving him will lessen his exposure.

Indeed, they just eat the charcoal. It's a medium grit consistency and my guys just love it! (In fact, I limit how much they get because too much on a regular basis can cause impactions in the crop.) I think that could help reduce the levels of any toxins in their systems, at least buying you more time. It can't hurt, that's for sure.

The water quality issues in your area are concerning. So I agree that you shouldn't trust the water. Contamination can remain for years and due to politics, I can envision a situation where the extent or longevity of a contamination issue is kept under wraps. So I'd definitely use only bottled water for now. I'm not sure I'd even trust boiled water as some toxins can't be boiled off.

I think it's unlikely the greens are to blame, as I think that if it was a pesticide or whatnot, then it would be a fairly common issue amongst bird owners, if that makes sense?

It is scary that Teflon is allowed for food products. If it's toxic to birds, it's likely harming us too! Or at minimum, it's not healthy and harmless.

I think it's unlikely that you broke both legs unknowingly. A small fracture would have healed up on its own. If both of his legs were both totally broken, they would have been dangling useless. He wouldn't have perched afterwards. It would have been really obvious.
I think the dragging of the legs was simply the start of the necrosis process. The nerves would have been affected first, as they're among the finest, most delicate structures in the legs. Then the larger structures would have died and blackened. So he would have gradually lost control over the course of a day or more, depending on how aggressive the necrosis was.

A few more ideas came to mind...

- Have you ever had any water leaks in your home? Or any damage that could have potentially led to a water leak? Any problems with mold? Ever had air quality testing?
There are some types of mold that can be very dangerous and even deadly. They kill in two ways: by impacting the respiratory system AND by generating toxins. The mold is usually inhaled and it gets stuck in the lungs, where it takes up residence and the spores produce toxins, producing very confusing symptoms that look like toxicity/poisoning.
Unfortunately, I don't know what med you'd use to treat this. The most common antifungal drugs like Medstatin/Nystatin are only good for treating areas where the medication directly contacts. So you'd need a systemic anti-fungal med. So this is something to ask Laraine about (my next bit of advice.)

Normally, I don't recommend treating blindly, but the reality is that if you take him to the vet, there's minimal testing that can be performed due to the small size. (For instance, if this was a larger bird or a cat or dog, and a mold was suspected, they'd put them under sedation, go in through the mouth and down into the lungs with a little camera and either take a small biopsy sample or simply swab. But a canary is far too small. Any testing like that could only be done during a necropsy - a bird autopsy.)
But if nothing else works and he's still fading, then a systemic antifungal may be an avenue to pursue. At worst it does nothing; at best, it helps.
Plus, I'm worried that whatever is impacting them could impact your family too. The birds are just showing symptoms sooner because they're smaller and more sensitive.
I know that there are some companies that offer free or really low cost air quality testing (and they make their money on remediation) so I might look into that especially if you've never done it before in this house.

Now, there is a wonderful woman named Laraine at LadyGouldian.com. She's my source for all my meds, supplements and special food items. She's SO knowledgeable about bird health and she also works with a world-renowned avian vet, Dr Marshall, based in Australia; he works to field questions when it's something complex or unusual.
I would do a detailed writeup on each bird. Go through in chronological order what has happened to each bird. Be sure to mention as much detail as possible in terms of symptoms, what meds you tried, and be clear on timeframes too. (And share those writeups here too in case there's something you didn't mention already!)
I would also refer Laraine to this thread so she can see what we've been brainstorming and what's been more or less ruled out.
I think Laraine and the avian vet, Dr. Marshall, could be a great resource. They're both people who encounter acutely sick, unwell birds on a regular basis and they're more apt to be familiar with many of the more unusual or downright obscure conditions that could be to blame.
I would also inquire about the possibility of a toxic mold and a potential treatment for that.

I think that whatever is causing this may be some obscure environmental issue, perhaps one that only impacts canaries or more profoundly affects canaries.
Canaries are renowned for their sensitivity to toxins and respiratory ailments. They're more sensitive than many other species (which is part of why they were used in the coal mines for generations.)

I also think there's a good chance it's going to be a combo of issues, like environmental + parasites + secondary infection or something like that.
Of course, one cause that would explain everything would be ideal, but sometimes you can get caught up looking for one cause when, in fact, it's several causes.

Agree with Sheather; one surviving from a clutch isn't all that odd generally speaking. I've had many 1-clutch babies over the years. Sometimes the other eggs are infertile, or the eggs are left to cool and only the one that was most deeply buried survived. It can happen due to a new parent or a bad parent or a parent who's disturbed. Lots of causes, so I wouldn't read into that. If anything, it would suggest that your guy is the fittest since he survived!

I'd also see if we can find a renowned canary vet. Dr. Marshall is known for his work with parrots (though I know he sees finches and others.) Is there a Dr. Marshall of the canary world whom we might contact?

[MiaCarter]

Oh, on the cascade packets...
I can't imagine it would be the problem. I guess it's possible, but not likely.

But give it a try and rule it out.
Use just bleach and water. And rinse well with bottled water. I use a papertowel in place of a sponge for scrubbing (sponges hold bacteria and they creep me out.) That helps you avoid transferring any bacteria amongst bowls too.

[KavaDulce]

MiaCarter by golly, I think you did it! We DID have a water leak in the kitchen! Our home was built in 2003, but we've only lived here 2 years. Our faucet had a pinhole leak we didn't know about till we saw the laminate swell. When we ripped it off, the underside of the laminate was covered with mold. I read online the symptoms of Aspergillosis and they fit my first male perfectly!! Symptoms are usually brought on by stress (he was molting), loss of appetite, loss of voice, difficulty breathing and neurological symptoms. That HAS to be it!!!! I can't tell you how happy it makes me to FINALLY have an answer!!!! It is so hard not knowing.

Unfortunately, I don't think it would have affected my new birds. We had our countertops replaced right before we got them. I guess there could be a chance spores were still in the air, but their symptoms don't mimic my first male. But you can be assured I'm getting my air tested immediately!! The male's main symptoms are being ravenous, but still losing weight, diarrhea (but better now with the poppy seed). He stays on the bottom of cage, and sleeps there, but will hop on the lowest perch briefly when I change his water.

Want to know the scariest thing about the chemical leak? Apparently it sticks to the pipes! So unless they dig up all the pipes in a few counties, there's no guarantee that the water will ever be totally safe. I'm fortunate that the leak didn't make it here, but my parents were in the affected area. And you are very correct that it gets very political. The issue was quieted very quickly and coal company responsible magically went bankrupt before they were given any financial responsibility for the cleanup or doctor bills. Ugh. I'd like to say it's uncommon around here, but truth be told, it isn't. If my family wasn't around here, I'd have left a long time ago.

I'll definitely contact Laraine if you don't think she'd mind. She sent me such a nice note and some free NV powder when I ordered the S76 from her for my first male.

Sheather I do hope it's not the greens. I feel like it's the highlight of their day! haha. And watching them beg for it is just the cutest thing. I'd hate to limit them if their stools look good. It's good to know about the hatch rate, if ever I get that far!

dan78 I do wonder if I am seeing a snowball effect of some sort. Especially if the male was already a voracious eater when he came to me. I'm not very knowledgeable, but after watching my first male die, I couldn't help but think the second had "something" going on. He sang, but he was just so hungry all the time, and not near as active as the female. I just hoped I was wrong and he was just a lazy fellow. But I wasn't surprised when he fell ill.

So while searching around, I found this http://www.gouldiansgalore.com//quarantine.html

Do you all think this is a sensible procedure to follow with new birds? I was thinking of going ahead and trying it. At the worst, maybe it'll at least help ensure the survival of the female.

Many thanks!

[MariusStegmann]

That mortality rate is quite bad. I have my canaries outside in a mixed aviary, but my pair of canaries mostly have 3 - 4 eggs. If all 4 eggs hatches, then 3 chicks survive. If the clutch only has 3 eggs, then 3 chicks survives.

[Atbird]

KavaDulce. The sleeping on the bottom of the cage is no good, however canaries are usually voracious. They are little pigs and are constantly eating. I would be more concerned if he didnt eat. When you say he is losing weight, how can you tell? Do you weigh him? How much is he losing/how fast? Just trying to get a better picture of the situation.

[KavaDulce]

MariusStegmann I guess I just wondered if maybe he had black spot issues with the babies. I read it could affect juveniles up to a year old, and the symptoms seemed to fit.

Anna I guess I just thought it odd that he would park himself in his foodcup and eat and eat till someone got near the cage. I was used to seeing my other two grab a bite and flit, grab a bite and flit, ya know? At this point he never leaves his food dish. I have it on the floor of his cage. I wish I had a scale, but he just looks so thin and I could distinctly feel his keel bone. (We have a couple pet silkie chickens, so I'm accustomed to feeling their breast bone to see how much weight they have on them under all that fluff). He was already a bit smaller than than the female when he came to me, but is now dramatically so.

And whoever said a sick canary doesn't sing never met this little guy. He looks so sad and thin on the bottom of his cage, but he's been singing to the female all morning. I tried adding some chia seeds to his mix these past couple days and it seems to have increased his energy some. I'm hoping my meds come in tomorrow!

[Atbird]

Oh, yeah it's not a constant sitting in the dish...at least not all day. Poor birdy. I hope he feels better. You could also try Sulfcox from AbbaSeed http://www.abbaseed.com/Supplements/supplements.html
it's supposed to be for canaries "going light" (although that term is usually used for young birds). I've used it on my birds, but I don't really know if it made them better or if I was just thought they were sick and just treated a healthy bird .

[MiaCarter]

I'm glad we may have solved the mystery with the first male! Molds can create very confusing symptoms, since it looks like a respiratory infection, yet you've got a toxicity element in there too.

I wouldn't rule out mold as a contributing factor even now still.
Some types of mold are VERY pervasive. But an air quality test should reveal some insight.

As for quarantine, I STRONGLY recommend it.

If the birds come from the same source, I keep them together for quarantine.

I treat everyone in quarantine for the most common ailments with S76, Ronex and a de-wormer. (Just as you'd give a new dog or cat flea/tick meds, heartworm meds and a de-wormer.)

I learned my lesson with quarantine. To make a long story short, I took in an animal from a good friend and assumed she was parasite-free, so I didn't quarantine. She wasn't and my entire house was infested and it ended up taking weeks and thousands of dollars to get us all fixed up. It was a nightmare.

The more animals you have, the more important quarantine becomes. Not just for parasites, but for other communicable illnesses too (like respiratory infections, for instance.)

Plus, moving into a new home and a new flock (or pack) is stressful! Better to give them a chance to get acclimated with the environment first; then let them interact with the others once they're acclimated.

Stress from going to a new home can weaken the immune system too, making them more prone to opportunistic infections. And you don't want to stress them with social interactions with new individuals while they're sick.

So indeed, I can give you a dozen more reasons why quarantine is a good idea!

I do a 30-day quarantine (unless there's an illness; in that case, I wait for them to recover and show me they're well for a period of 7-10 days before integration.)
30 days gives you time to do all the treatments too. (I do them one at a time, not all at once.)

[KavaDulce]

Atbird, thanks, I'll try the Sulfcox next. He's currently on day 3 of Ronex. It's painful waiting each day for an improvement and wondering if "this" treatment will work. I am truly rollling the dice and hoping each time for an improvement, and that I'll not run out of time, sigh. I was optimistic as this Sunday he sang and sang, but today I came back from school and he is just sitting on the bottom of his cage breathing hard. The diarrhea has ceased and his droppings are firm again, but they are very very dark. Goodness, I hope it's not from blood loss..

MiaCarter oh my goodness, how TERRIBLE!!! I have learned so much, here. Just a couple weeks ago I had never even heard of quarantining! I'm so glad you were able to save your flock. How scary!

Crossing fingers and saying a prayer! Thanks so much!

[wildbird]

I wouldn't be using your tap water to rinse any dishes or greens for them. Also, would not give one medication after another. All drugs have adverse side effects which will be exaggerated in an already sick bird.

[lovezebs]

KavaDulce

Hi Karla.
Sorry to hear about your poor birdies.

I keep all of my birds in my small kitchen, including Canaries. I have some non stick pans, I cook daily, we've had some mold issues, I feed tons of greens daily ( regular, not organic) which I rinse under cold water, I use city water, I don't medicate, I wash their dishes with soap and hot water daily, I clean cages/flights with a vinegar/water solution, I feed my home made egg food mix daily, I feed a mixture of wild finch food, mixed with good quality Pet Store Finch seed and Canary mix ,plus spray millet and meal worms (both live and freeze dried) and wild grass seeds, chickweed, and dandilions (when in season).

All of my birds are very healthy (thank God) without any health issues. In fact, I can't stop them from breeding and having babies.

Now, my point is, there is something more than these issues going on in your situation. I would be quite concerned about the health of your family, especially the little ones.

I would be checking air quality, insulation, paint, building materials etc. How has your family's health been? Any unexplained allergies, stomach problems, asthma, unexplained rashes, or anything out of the ordinary since you've lived there?

I hope your birds recover, and that all goes well from now on, but I would still look into matters and go over things with a fine tooth comb, just to be on the safe side.

Good luck.

~Elana~

[Atbird]

I think it also depends on the birds. The ones that I bred myself, or my father bred, that were young adapted quite readily and are hardy. The ones that were given to me (my dad) by some of his breeder "friends" did not do so well. Knowing more about canaries now, they were older, used up breeder birds.

Do your birds have a metal, colored band on them?