FINCHforum

Hi all! I'm new here, though I've been lurking quite some time. All the information here has proved invaluable! I'm a long time lover of canaries, as my grandmother used to keep and casually breed them. Back then, they were MUCH more common around here, and people bred them in their kitchens and gave the babies to friends.

Well fast forward to now. I recently was thrilled to find a male canary in a remote pet store and my husband bought him for me for Mother's Day. He was very healthy and happy till he was finishing his molt. His molt lasted too long (12 weeks), even though I tried everything I could in regards to diet, temp, light, etc. When it finally ended, his healthy just started declining. He would sit puffed up, and bob his tail. I put him in a heated room and treated him for air sac mites. The poor thing died very slowly over the course of a month. It was very strange and heartbreaking to watch. His last few weeks he seemed in good spirits, but his legs went totally paralyzed and he used his wings to get around. I was feeding him soft food every couple hours. I have 4 small children, so as you can imagine, his passing was very emotional for everyone. In early December, my husband surprised me with a trip to Cincinnati to a canary breeder he found online. The man was on the Timbrado registry and has been breeding for 30 years. I thought the cages he kept the juveniles in looked overcrowded, but what do I know? Well the female was a very hyper chirpy little thing. She loves to sing short little songs and constantly amuses my children with her antics. The male was a more calm fellow, spending a lot of time in his food cup, but he had a beautiful song and sang readily. Well, right before his first birthday, the male started looking depressed (I only had him a month at that point), and spending more and more time in his food cup. He got bad diarrhea and I have him in isolation now in a heated room with his food cups on the floor of his cage as he has no energy to perch, anymore. The strange thing, is, that he has continued to sing???? Maybe where the days are getting longer and he can hear the female in the other room, but there he is, all raggedy and weak, singing his heart out. I treated him with a 4-in-1 and put electrolytes in his water and extra poppy seeds in his feed. It is very easy to feel his keel bone. I'm nervous about the female because even though her behavior is the same, she has a little diarrhea now, too.

I'll admit, I'm a mess.. The emotional toll of watching these precious little birds die has been hard on us. My husband is hesitant to let me get any more birds because of the effect it is having on the children, and I'll admit I'm hesitant too. I don't know enough to tell if I'm buying sick/old birds, or if I'm doing something wrong?? I keep the cages very clean and disinfect the seed and water cups every evening. They also had regular access to fresh greens and boiled egg once a week. Unfortunately, the local vets don't see anything smaller than a parrot. My dad's family looks at me crosseyed because I can't seem to keep these birds alive! They think I'm funny because I cover them at night and buy them special bird seed and organic greens and have to give them medicine. They brag that they never did anything special and their birds lived 14 odd years. I'll admit that when I look online and see all the supplements and medicines available/recommended it makes me nervous. Are canaries harder to keep than they used to be? Is there a medical regimen you all are using to help ensure success? If these canaries don't make it, and I try again, any advice would be appreciated. I love these little birds and how they fill my home with song! Thanks for listening!

Very sorry to hear of your troubles with these adorable birds. Two things popped into my mind, reading this.
First - perhaps they are exposed to a toxin of some sort, that you are unaware of? Cooking fumes, air freshener, house cleaning products, something the kids are playing with?
Also, you mentioned you disinfect the feeding and water dishes every night. What are you using to disinfect? I don't think EVERY night is necessary. Perhaps the dishes are not rinsed well enough? Plain soap and hot water are pretty much all I use. (love the instant boiling tap water dispenser).

Did you treat for ASM when you got them? Scatt or S76? That's something I do with every bird that comes in, canary or not. Then, a course of Ronex to address any protozoan uninvited guests.

A picture of the poo may be helpful.

Good luck!

Sometimes, using antibiotics, can actually cause problems....I would try a course of Ronex for a week, then follow-up with probiotics.

For this to happen to 2 of your birds, back to back - there is something going on. Are they from the same source?

Sunbay covered the points I would have mentioned.

I strongly suspect some sort of toxin. That paralysis you saw in the first male is very unusual. And having them slowly get sicker like this tells me it's likely to be something in the environment. It could be something else, but an environmental toxin is high on the list of potential causes, I'd say.

Do you use non-stick cookware by chance? That emits a very potent toxin that birds are very sensitive to.

I'm also curious about what you're using to disinfect.
I was always told not to use soaps on water dishes because it can leave a residue and even the slightest residue can cause problems. (Instead, I use bleach and water and elbow grease.)

KavaDulce sorry to hear about your birds.

Even with a medical regiment, some might not make it. Especially if they have a weak immune system and came to you already sick.
When you want to get a canary nextime, try to observe him from afar. If he is not active, puffed, tail bobbing, dirty vent, open mouth breathing, weasing, has a bloated stomach, skinny or just seem unwell, dont get him.

The first thing i do when i get new canaries, is treating them for a few commen diseases over a period of 3 - 4 weeks.
I do scatt or invermictin straight away the day I get them
Probiotics for 2 days
5 days on a general antibiotic (something like baytril) to make sure anything hidden is addressed
Then I will treat for coccidiosis and trichonomisis (using specific meds for each and i mix them in the water) not 4in1
And finally i deworm

Unfortunately without access to an avian vet, it is nearly impossible to tell what is wrong with your bird. When i was reading, i thought of coccidiosis. But it could really be anything, worms, megabacteria....

Probiotics will help with the diarrhea and maybe feed them some rice.

i do understand what your going through, i fell in love with borders and because they r rare in lebanon, i had to import a pair (very costly) they came to me sick and died from canary pox . A week later i found a male in lebanon so i bought him, two weeks later he died from pneumonia .
The only breeder of borders in lebanon had 3 pairs and decided to sell, so i bought a pair, and guess what the hen died (i have no idea from what) .

So i guess luck has a role. But dont feel discouraged and remember a healthy canary can live for many years.

Hello I'm sorry to hear that you are having troubles with your canaries. I personally don't believe that canaries are becoming weaker probably still the same but it's our choices as to what we give I believe sometimes can affect the birds. Yes there is a problem and I will also say sounds to me maybe an environmental sourced problem. I beleive that your cleaning so effectively can also become a problem as a clean cage is nice and great for birds but I feel that the water bowel and food container can go a few days with only a rinse then a good clean with diluted bleach and a really good rinse unless you have dirty birdies and then you will need a good cleaning more frequently. As for the new sick canaries I would consider a nice quiet location away from drafts or anything similar as well as a heat lamp for them to bask under, boiled water unless using distilled, seed mainly plain Canary and just a tad every few days of a boiled egg. I would keep away from fruits and eggs while they have diarrhoea as this can upset the bowels further. As for medicating the birds it would be taking a stab in the dark but I would suggest something for coccidiosis as these sound like similar symptoms.
Personally I don't have a high medication regime, I usually worm my birds once a year other than that I medicate where required and depending on the problem I will sometimes do the whole flock. Where I have found problems with medications have come from breeders of canaries. What I have found is that some breeders will use antibiotics on all their birds which over time has hindered their immune system and these birds once moved on will have issues unless regular antibiotics are given but this isn't all breeders but some induviduals.

KavaDulce
Birds indoors?

Sometimes less is more. When i first got canaries, i was giving them a lot of fresh food because I thought it was healthy for them...and it is...but i think i was giving too much and i lost one canary and my goldfinch . My dad and a couple of other breeders told me i was giving too much greens and eggfood. A single canary only needs a piece about the size of your thumb. And as suggested above, no fruits or veggies or egg while they are having diarrhea. Heat is good.

You mentioned that you give organic produce. Make sure you are rinsing well, better than non organic produce, with water and some diluted vinegar. I wash my dishes really well once a week. Every day they get spritzed with some hydrogen peroxide and wiped clean....they are stainless steel.

For the age of the canaries, check the ring. They are color coded by hatch year and they have the year written on them.

Perhaps the canaries are getting stressed. Where are they located. I keep mine in a corner in my living room, where they can see what is going on, but there is very little traffic in front of their cage. I also keep the back and one side covered so that they can feel safe.

I hope you can solve this problem. I can imagine the frustration you are feeling.

Thanks so much for everyone's responses!

Lauren- No, they are not from the same source, which makes me want to point the finger at myself. I've wondered about the environmental toxins myself. I am pretty natural, with little ones around. No air fresheners and I clean with vinegar, though I do use a Method granite spray on the countertops (but it says it's natural). I do use Teflon cookware but am super careful with it. I'm gradually trying to replace them. Is it possible for a bird to be affected by Teflon gradually? I always thought it was a quick death for them, and if they were okay, it wasn't affecting them. I do use plain soap and hot water on the dishes. I only clean them so frequently because they are the larger cups and the birds somehow manage to poop in them every day! I bought a smaller waterer today. I didn't treat them for anything when they came. Thanks for the suggestion of treating for ASM and using Ronex. I will definitely have them on hand for next time!

MiaCarter- the birds dying an inch at a time is what has me banging my head against the wall! Environmental makes sense, but like I said, we tend to be pretty natural around here. If low doses of being exposed to Teflon can cause problems, maybe that is it. I've tried to be careful about not heating the pans above medium till I can afford to replace them all. I also have avoided using them in the oven, but maybe that hasn't been enough? Now that I think about it, both canaries got sick around the 2 month mark in my home. The female is upstairs, so maybe that is why she is still okay? Though the timing could have been totally coincidental, the paralysis occurred after I started treating for ASM. A drop of Ivermectin on the back of the neck for 5 days. His legs went black and cold. I only use a drop of Dawn on the dishes (to minimize residue), and boiling hot water. But I'll try bleach from here on out.

Adam- thanks for all your pointers! Unfortunately, I may not get the opportunity to observe the birds firsthand as they are not common in my area. I'll have to order like you did. But I like your regimen for treating them upon arrival. I'm definitely going to have the meds and supplements on hand next go around. It's just that there are sooo many options available, it seems, so it's nice to have a list on hand. I do hope to find a healthy canary that I can keep healthy!

Dan- I agree. The world is a lot more toxic nowadays than it was in my grandmother's day! The more I read your all's responses the more I'm convinced it must be something here causing the problems. I do worry about overdoing meds. What kind of dewormer do you use?

Dutch- yes, indoors. The males had their cage by the window in the kitchen. The female is upstairs in the playroom.

Anna- maybe I am giving too much greens. I'll admit I enjoyed watching them enjoy them, and gave them a whole leaf of kale at a time. I thought it wasn't an issue unless they got diarrhea, (which they have now, but it took them 2 months to get it). I haven't let them have any since the diarrhea started, though. We have a large window off the kitchen. I kept the cage in front of it, where the males could see the bird feeder. (Funny story, I actually had female goldfinches hanging onto screen trying to get in when my first male would sing. I also had a hawk fly at the window, once!) They didn't seem stressed with the location and sang their little hearts out.

So I guess the question is, could Teflon cause a slow reaction? I honestly can't thing of anything else environmental it could be. And would it account for the diarrhea? Thanks so much!

KavaDulce
Teflon usually causes a quick death. Another thing i thought of, what kind of seed do you use and how do you store it. Occasionally seed can get moldy and can cause illness.

Anna- with my first male, the problems did coincide with me buying him a new bag of food. It was a natural canary/finch blend from my local Petco. When I opened it, I noticed it was REALLY dusty looking. I just figured it must be excess chaff, and blew it off every time I got him some. Now that I know a little more, I wonder if something was wrong with it. I'll never know for sure, but I do feel he had a lot of the symptoms of being exposed to mold. Because of that, I haven't returned to the store. My new canaries are eating Dr. Harvey's Canary Food. I keep it in the freezer and only bring it out long enough to scoop out a few tablespoons. I don't leave it out to build up moisture. They seem to like it, but I don't think I'll rebuy it. Not enough canary seed in my opinion.

Any thoughts on why my sick male has such an appetite? He's always seemed ravenous. And of course now he won't stop eating but he is still losing weight. My first male had trouble breathing but never lost weight. This one seems to be breathing fine, but can't gain weight, and is growing weaker each day.

I have an order of Ronex and Worm-away coming. If he survives long enough I thought I'd try a round of Endocox, too. Crossing my fingers and saying a prayer!

The canary food i feed looks like this. http://www.gardenfeathers.co.uk/user/pr ... _large.jpg
And smells like hay.

I hope your little guy gets better. Make sure you provide heat. My dad keeps his canaries at about 80 F and it really helps birds that are not feeling well.

I did a bit more research on teflon and it seems to be a more acute poisoning. (And while most sources say you need to have the teflon on high heat to emit fumes, I saw a more recent study that shows in a small space like an apartment or a home with lots of doors and poor ventilation, you can get to a deadly fume concentration with low or medium heat.)

I've always had birds, so I never allow teflon in the house. So it's not something I'm super experienced with. But I couldn't seem to find any evidence that it remains in their system. So that would make a cumulative effect over time unlikely.

Here's an idea: Get some charcoal. There is charcoal made specifically for birds.
If it's something they're ingesting, the charcoal should absorb a fair amount of the toxins. If you see an improvement, then that might be suggestive of an environmental toxin that they're ingesting.

(Just be sure you don't give charcoal while they're on medications, as it will soak up the meds.)

That's really odd about the male's legs getting black and cold. That's key right there. That's necrosis -- his legs literally died. There are very few things that cause this:
-fractures (you would have noticed this as his legs would have been dangling.)
-constriction/tourniquet effect (very thin hairs, fibers, etc can get wrapped around the legs, and it can be tough to see the thinnest fibers. But I find it unlikely that he would get something wrapped around the base of both legs at the exact same time.)
-wounds (the infection kills the tissue.)
-some sort of condition impacting the circulatory system. It could involve the collapse of the veins that provide blood supply to the legs (and other body parts - the legs were just most visible.)
Or the veins could be blocked by something like a clot. A clot is much more likely. Plus, clots would explain the breathing problems too.

But I can't think of any toxin that promotes clotting. (In fact, rat poisons with warfarin do the opposite - prevent clotting)
I'll do some research and see what I can find.

Something like parasites could definitely increase appetite.
I'd see about feeding some high-protein, nutrient-rich foods like eggs and mealworms to see if that helps slow the decline.

I suspect we might be dealing with more than one issue (like parasites + and environmental toxin.)

Another thought....

What's their bird cage made out of?
Is it an older cage?
Or one that was possibly re-painted?
Finches aren't big cage bar chewers, but they're small and it wouldn't take a lot to cause problems. And some toxins are absorbable via the skin.

Also, do you have well water?
If so, I might boil or switch to bottled (for their drinking water and for rinsing bowls.)
Well water is more prone to organisms. (Public water supplies are very closely monitored, whereas most folks don't run water quality tests all that often.)

I'd go through and systematically rule out various exposures. (e.g. if you boil the water and use bleach and water for cleaning, the you can be pretty sure it's not the bowls or water.)

I couldn't find anything on toxins that cause blood clots and I don't think something resulting from toxicity, like kidney failure, makes you especially prone to them.
But I did find a good list of some common household toxins. Thought I'd link in case something rings a bell for you (in fact, I might research more in this area to see if anything stands out.)
http://www.thebirdclinic.com/uploadedfi ... ndout4.pdf

Karla, so sorry to hear about the problems your having with the canaries, have you held the sick canary up to your ear to listen for clicking noises which is normaly present with asm/respiratory problems. With the canary which had the bad leg you mentioned it happened after treating with ivermectin, check to make sure you have the right 0.1% ivermectin for cage birds (such as scatt) and not the 1% for pigeons /larger birds, maybe the bird was overdosed resulting in some sort of illergic reaction like a fit causing it to injure itself.

You don't mention if you have given them soaked seed since you got them which can be a source of fungal infections, it's also important all remnants of greens/fruit they don't eat is removed before it goes rotten/decays, it can take weeks for birds to show any signs of these type of infections but once taken hold the bird will slowly waste away.

I'm not sure what else to suggest in helping you find the source/cause of whatever is affecting your birds, losing birds for unknown reason is not a pleasant situation for any bird owner to be in, hopefully you'll figure it out and get many happy years of enjoyment out of bird keeping.

Carla the wormer I use is moxidectin plus and ivomec. This does seem to be a big puzzle as Miacarter has stated there's alot that can cause some issues and some that are uncommon such as dead legs. If the dose of ivermectin was at a higher dose could affect the bird in certain ways such as death going light very lathargic sleeping a lot and so on because overdoing is like poisoning but the legs going black is a harder one to place. If the male is on the bottom floor and the girl up stairs I would relocate the male upstairs but away from the hen possible another room as she seems ok right? So that could mean that the issue is on the ground floor compared to upstairs. The reason behind this is that what is affecting the male is obviously near to the cage so getting him out of the area can help reduce the contact of this toxin and may result in him getting better or at least buy some more time to see the issue. The sad part about this is the fact when birds show sickness its in a bad state and sometimes beyond repair. Can you tell us where the water is sourced form and preperations? You mentioned a lot of greens so how has this been prepared before been given and where did you get them from? There is a condition which is common known as going light which canaries seem to get, which is still debatable on how and why canaries get it but I have known a few that do waste away as stated going light over a period of time till death comes this maybe what the birds have contracted and the course given is also in debate as to what is needed. The reasons for my questions is to work out if the water used for drinking is a problem and if there maybe some way the greens could have a part to play in it.