A Special Xmas Gift!...And a Question!

[MiaCarter]

Hi everyone!
Okay, SUPER excited. Tomorrow morning (Yes, Christmas morning) we're going to be picking up a very special gift: a little baby cockatiel!

I'm SO excited!

I'm not positive on her age, but by the photos, she looks to be around a month old, give/take a few days.
She is not weaned yet. She's being handfed currently. She eats 3-4x per day.

I'm so excited for an opportunity to handfeed a baby that I'm going to keep! I've never kept any of the baby hookbills that I've fed. They've always been fosters. So I'm super excited for this!

MY QUESTION surrounds how much to feed her.
I know the general rule is 10% of body weight per meal, but I can't recall whether that's BEFORE or AFTER adding water. (I looked on the packaging of the formula, but it's rather cryptic. The way it's written, it could be either/or).

I'm a bit nervous about this, as I've never started handfeeding on a bird who was fully feathered, without the crop at least partially visible. I usually use the look of the crop as a guide when determining feeding amounts and I won't be able to do that here. And I'm afraid to feed until she stops begging as I know many babies tend to be over-eager, begging even after they're full.

I'll find out how much she's currently eating, of course. But the girl who currently has him has admitted that she knows very little about birds. So I don't feel comfortable trusting her feeding amount as it's very possible that she may be under/over feeding.

I'm hoping this little one will be good for our cockatiel Hunter. He lacks any real strong bonds with humans due to his fear and lack of socialization. And he doesn't relate to the budgies (they're too involved with each other to notice him.) So hopefully, this baby will be a nice friend for him. He has little social experience with other birds, so that's why we chose a baby -- someone who will hopefully be more forgiving of his social ineptitude.

Of course, if he never becomes friends with the new bird, that's certainly just fine. She'll have us and at least we'll have provided Hunter with a chance for a bond with another bird. As the old saying goes, you can only lead a horse to water, but can't force them to drink.

We'll be working to bond with the baby intensively so she'll have a nice human bond in addition to any bond she forms with Hunter. (I know, I know. Some believe that birds can either have a strong human bond or a strong bond with another bird. I prefer to offer both when possible and I've had a lot of success with this approach and have found them to be happier and more well-rounded.)

I have a few photos! She's absolutely adorable! I'm not great with cockatiel mutations and I haven't seen her in person yet, but I think she's a pied normal grey.







The countdown is on! T-minus 18 hours until we get new baby bird!

[cindy]

Mia... this is Roudybush's article section.... there are several articles on cockatiels including the protein needs hand feeding.

I will go through some of the articles and see if there is anything that can help you.

Is she syringe feeding the baby or spoon feeding it? He is getting big enough and should be weaning soon. I usually feed the babies (spoon feed) until they back away and seem full. I tend not to top off as some breeders do but feed enough and often.

http://www.roudybush.com/index.cfm?fuse ... n.articles

[cindy]

hope this helps...it is off a 5 lb bag of Roudybush formula

[MiaCarter]

cindy - Thanks! I'll take a peek at those!

And thanks for that feeding graph! That DEFINITELY helps!

I believe she's using a syringe (without crop tube) currently, so I was planning to continue with that for at least a couple days until she's settled in and calmed down, then, we'll see about switching to a spoon if it looks like she's ready.

I take the same approach --- preferring to offer smaller, more frequent meals vs. topping off. Seems to promote weaning a bit better and there's less risk of aspiration due to regurgitation from a super full crop.

I suspect she's going to be a bit delayed weaning because the girl said that she was only offering seeds and (understandably), she hasn't been eating much of those. But I know they generally opt for the seeds and harder foods at the end of the weaning process.
So I'll be introducing lots of new soft, baby-appropriate foods in the next few days. Egg food, mealworms, fruits, bird bread, tonic seeds, millet, etc.

In short, this little one's diet seems to be a bit of a mess at the moment and far from ideal.
I just need to be careful to avoid changing too much, too quickly so she doesn't end up with the runs.

[KarenB]

I've hand fed lots of hookbills in my life. For what it's worth, my main advice would be to not overfeed. You cannot pack a hookbill's crop like you can a finch's. In fact I was shocked the first time I saw someone handfeed a finch.

My second bit of advice would be to make sure you alternate which side of the beak you feed on each time you feed so you don't create a scissors beak. The beak is very soft still and can be deformed by putting pressure on one side consistently.

And congratulations on getting your new baby

[cindy]

Mia, what formula are you using.... I get Roudybush at whole sale price in 5 lb bags should you need some!!!

[cindy]

Try soaked pellets warmed as a weaning food. When I hand feed I offer them and some of Roudybush's soak and feeds warmed they seem to like that and manage it better than seed when first learning to wean.

[MiaCarter]

KarenB -- Thanks for the tips!

I've handfed lots of hookbills too, so I know *exactly* what you mean about the difference in crop elasticity. That's part of what has me so nervous!
I've never started handfeeding with a fully-feathered bird; I've always had the visual component to help guide me.

Plus, when you handfeed hookbills, if you chronically over-feed, that lack of elasticity can cause the crop to stretch too low, causing it to not empty properly as the crop extends too far below the "drainage point" so to speak.
I've had a handful of hookbills who came to me with that problem and we had to make a little crop "bra" and did super small, frequent feedings so the crop would retract back into the right position.

Also great reminder on the feeding on different sides! It's been about 9 months since I've fed a hookbill baby and I've done lots of finches in that time, so I've gotten used to finches and aiming toward the bird's right side since I'm typically using a crop tube.

In fact, looking at the beak in the photos, I'd noticed that her beak looks like it may already be slightly mis-aligned, as it's not fully closed in any of the photos.
In the top photo, it almost looks like it's starting to scissor. Or it may just be the photo. We'll find out soon! 13.5 hours to be exact! (But who's counting, right?)

[MiaCarter]

cindy -- Well, I was going to start out using the Kaytee Exact because that's what she's on currently. So she'll stay with that for at least a day or two while she adjusts.
Then I was thinking I might transition to Lefebers, which is the only other one I have on-hand.
But I'm not positive. While the Exact is rather low end as far as formulas go, I know that Exact is actually higher in protein than Lefeber (and by a few percentage points too!)

So I was planning on playing it by ear and evaluating to see whether a switch to a better formula would be worth our while. If it turns out she's willing to eat lots of baby-appropriate foods on her own and weaning is imminent, then I thought it may not be worth the risk of intestinal upset of switching.

So I might take you up on a bag of Roudybush! How much?
Can you use it on finches too or only hookbills?
My only worry is that a 5 lb bag may go off way before I'd ever use it all! LOL How long does it keep?
(For perspective, it took me about a year to get through an 18-oz canister of Exact, even using it as an ingredient in my egg food.)

That's a fabulous idea on soaking pellets! (And, if I'm lucky, I'll have a bird who actually eats pellets! I've got a whole tub hanging out in my freezer.)

[cindy]

I will pm you the info on the formula...are you going to the Orlando show in January?

The Roudybush is creamy compared to Exact. Exact I find is kind of gritty and tends to set up in the cup. Roudybush I found holds them longer between feeds.

[cindy]

if you keep your formula in the freezer you can extend the shelf life. The 5lb bags expire in Nov 2106

I have fed finches and hookbills with it!!

[MiaCarter]

cindy --- I'm hoping to go to Orlando in January! Nothing in stone yet.

Agreed; Exact is rather gritty and it separates from the liquid requiring continual stirring. (Though if you stir it for 2-3 min, it can help smooth it out a bit.)
Even the Lefeber is much better in this regard (and it doesn't separate), which is why I usually prefer that one over Exact.
I usually keep the Exact on-hand as a backup and for use in egg food. (Plus, most of the others who do fostering/rescue in this area opt for Exact, so it's good for continuity.)

Good to know on freezing!
I think I could probably use a 5-lb bag in 2 years as long as I use it in the egg food. (Can you imagine how many finches you could raise with a 5-lb bag? LOL)

[cindy]

I have never added it to eggfood.... not sure about spoilage once wet/moistened and left out, so never did it. I do use a powdered vitamin and mineral/amino acid supplement 3 times a week in soft foods.

[Sheather]

Super excited for you Mia! She is going to be great for you and Hunter.

I think from what I've seen, the issue of a bird only bonding to a human if kept without other birds applies to parent-fed birds, or older birds whom are not tamed when very young. Hand-feds almost always prefer human contact and enjoy it even when they have companions.

I wish my Gracie would accept avian companionship - the parakeets try so hard to forge a bond, the one always wants to play and two others are constantly trying to groom him, he always responds by moving away. He's too set in his ways and certain he's a people to hang out with such juveniles. He behaves around the budgies as a high-class, prissy human would around hyper unruly dogs, I'm sure if he could speak he would be muttering "savages!" under his breath.

[MiaCarter]

cindy -- Yeah, I'm not sure how well the formula keeps when mixed with egg. I add it in at the end, so it's still semi-powdery. It just dries it up a bit and makes the egg food more crumbly.

I generally remove any fresh foods that aren't eaten within 90 min - 2 hours, so I try to remove it before it has a real chance to go off.
And I'm careful to spread it out on the plate so it dries up instead of staying damp.


Sheather -- I know it! So exciting!
I'm not sure how Hunter will react. I'll be very curious to see how he does.

Part of me wonders if he'll even recognize her as an equal. He is really aloof socially speaking. I wouldn't put it past him to ignore her completely, not knowing how to engage her, so that's where her baby-ish-ness will come in handy, as juveniles tend to be more bold in that regard.

I hope he does find friendship with her. Or me. I just want him to form a bond with someone as I know his life will be so much better!
He just doesn't take joy in anything. Not food. Not toys. Not other birds. Not people. Though slowly, this is changing. He does seek out attention in his own Hunter-ish way. For instance, if I'm leaning down looking into a finch cage, he'll waddle over and bow his head, indicating he'd like rubbey-rubbeys. But that's the extent of his engagement and if you were to ignore him, he does nothing -- just accepts it, which makes it even more pathetic.
In the past couple days, he has started sitting on my arm for rubbey-rubbeys and will go up to my shoulder when I whistle. So that's something too. Great step forward!

Hunter just makes me sad. He literally sits in one spot all day long. Napping, watching TV or watching the cats. That's it. I've had cockatiels before and even elderly birds that were several times more active than he is.
Occasionally, he'll vocalize (he's doing it right now, in fact.) But it's rare. Maybe for 3-4 min per day total.

That's sad that Gracie ignores the budgies and their attempts at friendship!
My guys don't even notice Hunter. They're so engaged in each other and in their toys.
At least Gracie has you! That's a good thing.

I just hope this little baby brings Hunter more joy. (I know she'll bring me lots of joy! So even if Hunter doesn't like her, she'll have lots of attention!) He just desperately needs a friend, whether he realizes it or not! LOL

Just a few more hours until we get her! So excited!