FINCHforum

Until this very moment, I believe every post I've ever made on this forum has been out of genuine concern for my birds' welfare. I'm afraid this one is different. I'm now concerned about MY well-being. Specifically, my ability to live harmoniously in the same household with a certain quite boisterous young late-adolescent Gouldian hen!

For the first couple of months or so that I had the pair, she had been rather noisy. This contradicted everything I had read beforehand, which seemed to say that compared with most species, Gouldians are very quiet birds -- the male has a very soft whisper-like song and an occasional chirp, while the hen hardly ever makes any sound at all -- only a slight "peep" occasionally. Hmmmph! Right, I thought those first several weeks. The male lived up to his end of the bargain, but the hen was the polar opposite of quiet throughout most of the daytime hours. During any given day, easily 95% of the noise emitted by this pair came from her!

Imagine this: a series of exactly 4 VERY loud chirps in quick succession, followed by a 3-4 second pause, then repeat over...and over...and over....and.... (I should probably explain that we're not talking pleasant little bird "chirps" here -- these are very, very loud, almost angry, scolding-like squeaks that she emits constantly in almost a neurotic fashion.) Then imagine this noise just 3 feet from your home office desk, and enduring it from almost sunup to sundown each day. And imagine hearing this noise even upstairs in the opposite corner of your home, and while standing 20 feet from your closed front door -- even though the cage is easily an additional 40-50 feet from that door, on the opposite side of the room. This should provide a sense of just how loud she really is. So much for the quiet hen myth!

Tiffany very wisely deduced that the hen was probably missing her "girlfriends" back in the juvenile henhouse where she had been kept before I adopted her, and was calling out to them. After a while she'll become accustomed to her new surroundings and cage-mate, and calm down, she thought. And as usual -- she was right....I was delighted when within 2-3 months this constant noise finally stopped for the most part, and she seemed finally to settle down and allow all of us to live "in peace" for the next 6 months. (Actually she continued doing this for a few minutes here and there, typically maybe 2-3 times a day....but unlike those first few weeks, she always stopped after only a few minutes.)

Well, guess what? For the past 2 weeks, this very unwelcome day-long noise machine is B-A-C-K -- the hen simply will not shut up! As in those early weeks last fall, once again she spends much of her day flying back and forth from one side of the cage to the other, clinging to the cage bars, making this incessant noise nearly all day. She begins in late morning, goes all afternoon and evening until the cage cover goes on at night. She stops only to eat or drink occasionally. By the end of the day, I have a headache that simply won't stop and I'm hearing this noise still echoing in my head at night. I've found myself actually looking for excuses to run errands or make dinner plans out with friends yet again -- just to get away for a while.

Could this noise be stress-related? Or possibly frustration over her inability to nest? (I have noticed lately that both birds at times seem to look frantically around their cage for several minutes, several times a day, as if they're looking for something -- a nest maybe?) Or do birds sometimes act like this when they are sick, perhaps? Both birds are just finishing their first adult molt, with feather loss stopping completely about a week ago. They now have only some head pin feathers remaining before completing their molt. Could she simply be weary of the molting process and anxious for it to stop? Both birds seem very closely bonded now -- always sitting and roosting together, so I don't believe it's a problem of incompatibility any longer, as I'd feared a while back. They really do seem to like each other (except when she still occasionally honks or "bites" him at roosting time for a few minutes -- and that has become much less common recently).

Seriously, if I can't manage to muzzle her somehow, one of us -- me, my partner or possibly the male Gouldian -- is going to end up neurotic ourselves!

Have you tried giving her a nest box?
My pair would sleep in theirs before they even laid any eggs.
She just may need a place to hide or she really
wants to breed?
They will not breed in the open, only in a nest box.
Very private and shy about their mating ritual.

Give it a try!

Jerry

Hmmm......honestly, I know you love your birds (it truly shows) and I know Nixity is a wonderful, respected, and reputable breeder. I know she has offered to switch your boisterous hen for another one of her hens -- I honestly think you should get in touch with her and take her up on that offer. It's not giving up on this particular hen -- it's more or less finding a better partner/home/environment for this hen, whom I believe has caused you and your male Gouldian significant amounts of anxiety, concern, and stress. I think the longer you wait, the harder it will be to make this transition. Sometimes, it simply does not work out. A lot of us re-home birds all the time -- whether it be due to some sort of conflict, to free up space, or to focus on specific species. I think you might find great peace and tranquility if you "trade in" your current hen for another of Nixity's wonderful super birds. Just food for thought. Good luck!

I agree.... just wondering though... is this bird in breeding condition?
I had a black head hen that when I seperated all my birds was doing this. Fortunately for me she was out in the aviary and I was able to tolerate it. But it went on for about two weeks her chriping over and over and standing at the door trying to peek through the cracks.
If this bird doesn't like the mate you have it with and is missing someone that is surely the problem.
So I think I would either make that trade..... or put her back where she wants to be. She is just as stressed as you are.

BigBear0007 wrote:Have you tried giving her a nest box?...She just may need a place to hide or she really wants to breed?

An intense desire to nest is my leading theory about what's going on with this latest round of rowdy behavior. I had bought a nestbox and nesting materials a couple months ago, and was literally planning to install them that weekend, when I began seeing signs that they had begun to molt. So all plans to allow them to breed were suspended until their molt is complete.

It's nearly complete now, I would guess maybe another couple of weeks. Unfortunately, though, once again bad timing is an issue. I will be traveling abroad for 2 weeks in early July, and having a friend come in to care for them every other day while we're away. There's just so much that can go wrong during the breeding phase that I'm not comfortable allowing them to breed while we're away....I really feel I should be here for that. So providing a nest will need to wait until we return home later next month. Not much I can do meanwhile.

dfcauley wrote:...is this bird in breeding condition?....If this bird doesn't like the mate you have it with and is missing someone that is surely the problem.

bugaboo5 wrote:Hmmm......honestly, I know you love your birds (it truly shows) and I know Nixity is a wonderful, respected, and reputable breeder....I think you might find great peace and tranquility if you "trade in" your current hen for another of Nixity's wonderful super birds.

Thanks, Bugaboo -- yes I do, and yes, Tiffany absolutely is! As for your proposed solution, to be honest I was hesitant to even raise this issue out of concern someone may propose exactly that. I've recognized that as an option -- so yes, it's still on the table I suppose, if she is agreeable. BUT....I very, very strongly prefer that it be the absolute last resort -- my "nuclear option" -- if nothing else works. Not just because I love my birds, but also because the male Gouldian really is very clearly in love with her -- he sings to her constantly and does his courtship dance 2-3 times a day typically. And she very often (though not always) responds.

Please keep in mind: she had 6 months of relatively no problems, other than some occasional aggression (which seems to have mostly stopped now). Before she resumed this noisy behavior almost 2 weeks ago, both birds would spend practically their entire day sitting side by side, and they ALWAYS roost together at night (even though it takes a few minutes for her to "settle down" sometimes). Even with this latest behavior, though, they still spend much of their day together, and for the last 2-3 weeks she has only rarely been aggressive with him at roosting time. Last night, in fact, they flew together to the same roost and sat cuddled together as close as they could be -- without any aggression whatsoever. So they SEEM to be very well bonded, and I really hate to break that up. That's not to say I won't....if it comes to that. And it may very well. But if I must go to that very last resort, I at least want to have the satisfaction of knowing that I tried everything I possibly could to keep them together.

DF -- No, she is not in breeding condition at present, based on her beak color. It had been very dark earlier this year for a while, but when she entered the molting phase it lost almost all its gray/black color. Yet she still responds very often to his courtship advances even now.

But she was never mated with any other male -- this in fact is the very first male she has ever been caged with. She had been kept in a juvenile flight cage with only other hens prior to my adopting her. So if she is missing anyone at all, it is her girlfriends back home -- who she hasn't seen for over 8 months. Given the fact she wasn't making this noise for 6 months, I'm inclined to think she got over her "homesick" issues.

At this point, I guess, allowing them to breed in case that will calm her down is my best possible hope. If I reach a breaking point in the coming weeks with this noise, however, I may have to abandon the breeding idea after all. Truthfully, the male usually doesn't seem that terribly affected by her boisterousness. He'll often look somewhat bewildered, and occasionally fly up to their stress perch to get out of her way while she's flitting and tweeting.....but he still spends most of his day singing to her. As for myself, I'll be looking for some earplugs today.

Dave, I'm certainly low on the list regarding knowledge of gouldians with all the gouldian experts on this forum -- I only have 6 gouldians and haven't bred mine yet either.

However, I wanted to mention the possibility that when your birds are looking around (particularly if they're looking up quite a bit) in their cage it could very well be they are scanning around looking for a high place that they can nest. Some of my other finches do this if they're not satisfied with their nest position or they're ready to nest and a nest is not around.

I agree that you should touch base with Tiffany and see what she says... it might be that if you put your nest and some materials in, it will calm your beautiful girl immediately and still take your young pair a while to finally get to the point of sitting on any eggs (and maybe you would be back by then??)

Just a thought.

Have you considered earmuffs ?

Okay, seriously, the only time I have ever notice a hen doing the frantic repetitive calls has been when I have seperated her from her mate...or sometimes when I move her from her all girls flight to her mates cage... She sometimes will call out to her "girlfriends", that is until she falls in love with the new fellow.
I do have some goulds that will all call out when an outside wild bird is singing close to the aviaries...especially if it sounds like a mad bird (mockingbird) I think it is a warning call to alert the others that their is a big bit=rd around.
Give that girl a nest soon and get some peace and quiet

Thanks, Anna and Candace -- I really appreciate your thoughts on this predicament! The more I've thought about it today, the more I'm inclined to believe she IS reacting to lack of a nest. Both she and the male -- but especially he -- in recent weeks have been spending up to 30-45 minutes at a time frantically searching their cage, especially up high. So, you're probably exactly right on that point, Anna!

The male in recent days also has been nibbling on some dried sisal grass I've always kept hanging from the cage roof, but since it's firmly attached to and threaded through a cube, he can't use it to build anything. I do have 2 nesting dispensers with material that I'll include when I add the nestbox.

Is it really critical that I wait til their molt is complete? They seem to be 95% done at this point....she has about 20-25 pin feathers remaining on her head, and he has about 40. Should I also change their diet in preparation for nesting?

I'm still very reluctant to leave them for 2 weeks if they go into breeding, especially since it's their first time. But it seems as if I have very little choice, as this trip has been planned and paid for 7 months ago, and most of it is non-refundable. To postpone it would mean losing several thousand dollars. I do love my birds, but that's a lot to ask. Especially given that the trip is my partner's birthday gift...I'd never be forgiven for that one!

As I said, the hen isn't even in breeding condition at the moment, based on her beak. It does seem slightly darker the last few days compared with last week, however....when it was mostly white. A bit of gray seems to be returning. The male still has his characteristic red-lipstick tip though....it's not pure white as it was a few months ago, when hers was dark gray. Will they successfully mate even when their beaks aren't the right color, or will she be unable to lay a fertile egg as long as her beak hasn't darkened again?

Let's say I were to add their nestbox as early as this weekend. That would mean they have just barely over 3 weeks of nest time before I go away for 11 days. In terms of timing, am I tempting fate and risking too much by giving this a try?

Candace -- your observations about the impact of wild birds are particularly interesting, because beginning about 3-4 weeks ago I began opening the windows to allow some fresh spring air inside after such a long winter. The top of a large tree is directly outside the window nearest their cage (about 4 feet away), and anytime the window was open both birds would become hyper-alert due to the various bird calls they would hear coming from the tree. They would listen intently, and often respond, which I always found amusing.

At one point about a month or so ago, I heard both my birds chirping excitedly and looked out the window to see a stunning bright orange-colored small bird (a wild finch?) perched on one of the tree's top limbs -- within easy view of their cage. They certainly noticed it, and I believe it saw (or heard) them as well. I'd never seen such a bird before and have no idea what it was, but it stayed for about 20 minutes or so before flying off. Unfortunately I haven't seen it again since.

All windows have been closed for the past week, with temperatures topping 100 both today and yesterday -- with no decline at all in the hen's rowdiness. So while those wild bird calls may indeed have instigated her calls, she hasn't calmed down yet despite not hearing them for at least a week now. Hmmm....maybe the "call of the wild" from her wild brethren convinced her that she's a caged animal yearning to be free?

Dave, first may I say that you are a superlative communicator --?? Rarely have I experienced a blogger that can describe so vividly for others what you are going through with your gouldians. Thank you for that.

Birds are all instinct; I don't think they would be so frantically looking for a nest if they weren't 'ready' (at least in their own minds). But, making them hold-off for a while shouldn't harm them. They are young and healthy. What about a brief separation of the two while you are gone? (maybe give your girl to someone with a lot of knowledge of finches -- just while you are gone) Typically, absence of one or the other of a pair 'makes the heart grow fonder.' Then you could put them together and add a nest when you return.

But, yeah you're right, the trip is a must! ... IMO... go on your birthday trip (sounds wonderful by the way) have a great time with your partner and re-assess the situation when you return.

DCbeachboy wrote: Hmmm....maybe the "call of the wild" from her wild brethren convinced her that she's a caged animal yearning to be free?

Being that she was domestically bred, I would feel no guilt over keeping her safe and captured I would have a hard time caging or even containing in a large aviary a wildcaught bird.... every since I was a kid and read this poem by Maya Angelou


I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings
The free bird leaps
on the back of the win
and floats downstream
till the current ends
and dips his wings
in the orange sun rays
and dares to claim the sky.

But a bird that stalks
down his narrow cage
can seldom see through
his bars of rage
his wings are clipped and
his feet are tied
so he opens his throat to sing.

The caged bird sings
with fearful trill
of the things unknown
but longed for still
and is tune is heard
on the distant hillfor the caged bird
sings of freedom

The free bird thinks of another breeze
an the trade winds soft through the sighing trees
and the fat worms waiting on a dawn-bright lawn
and he names the sky his own.

But a caged bird stands on the grave of dreams
his shadow shouts on a nightmare scream
his wings are clipped and his feet are tied
so he opens his throat to sing

The caged bird sings
with a fearful trill
of things unknown
but longed for still
and his tune is heard
on the distant hill
for the caged bird
sings of freedom.

You've raised some potentially promising ideas well worth considering, Anna....I'm grateful for those. Thanks. I also touched base today with Tiffany about the situation, and she did advise holding off until their pin feathers are cleared before adding a nestbox. So I'm guessing another week or possibly two. Which would mean giving them a nest the week before I go away....or maybe doing as you recommend and separating her instead while I'm away. I've just got to find a way to calm her down in the interim....I'm not going to make it another 2 weeks with this avian equivalent of a jackhammer in my home.

Tiffany seems inclined to think it may just be her personality, but suggested shutting her in a dark room alone for a few minutes in hopes that may calm her down....which I will try tomorrow. I'm just not convinced it's her personality, however. If it were, she would not have calmed down as she did for 6 months. She's really been quite good since around January -- definitely not in this frantic noise-making mindset. True, she's shown a few signs of aggression and moodiness here and there....but they've always either abated or are not serious enough to be deal-breakers. We shall see what happens.

annague wrote:Dave, first may I say that you are a superlative communicator --?? Rarely have I experienced a blogger that can describe so vividly for others what you are going through with your gouldians.

Awww, now you've got me blushing, Anna. But thank you -- that actually means a lot to me. I'll admit, writing is my passion. And as a few of you know, I'm making a rather challenging transition in my professional life. After having devoted my entire career over the last 25 years to writing in one form or another (from being a news reporter to a political speechwriter to a messaging guru for a multinational firm), I'm now attempting to transition into a new and, at times, intimidating venture -- that of fiction writer. I'm just a few months off from finally completing my first novel -- a labor that's taken much of my "spare" time over the past 5 years or so. It's my very first try at fiction (though some would say politics has its moments!), and the learning curve has been steep.

As I said to Tiffany the other day, I'm always concerned I'm providing too much detail in my posts here on the forum, but it's my old reporter instinct -- details, after all, are my lifeblood as a writer. Plus, I'm also always concerned about leaving out a detail that might be an important clue to someone who reads it that helps them pinpoint whatever is going on with my birds. I've authored a political blog in the past, and some friends recently have been encouraging me to start a bird blog, of all things. I'm not sure yet that I want to take the time for that, and I'm even less sure that anyone would read it! But maybe at some point I'll consider.

Maya Angelou -- now THERE'S an extraordinary communicator, and a great inspiration to me personally. I've always greatly admired her too, Candace! In fact, she's the source of one of my very favorite quotes -- which has nothing at all to do with birds, but I'll pass it along here anyway: "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel."

As for "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings"....wow. Thanks for sharing, Candace. Beautifully written, and moving on several levels.....especially metaphorically. So moving that for a split moment there I had to resist the nearly overwhelming urge to open the windows and set my birds free! I had to remind myself that I can give them more love and a better quality life than they could ever get in the wild. Yes, this finch daddy is doing his darnedest, but also knows he still has much to learn. Thank God I've got ya'll.

I had the same brief urge to open the doors for my finches after reading that lovely poem, too!

Your posts always make me smile! So I would love to know the name of your book if you publish your novel. I am already a fan!

Let us know what you decide to do and thank you for sharing so candidly with us about your birds.

Well don't feel bad for your domestic pet birds... they wouldn't know what to do out there in the wilds ... they would be most frightened.
I think they are plenty happy with the love (not to mention all the food) we give them

I also love that quote from her. If only we could always make people feel good about themselves...
I would read your bird blog, two of my favorite things... good writing and birds

Thanks -- well, at least I'll have 2 readers....that's a start!

A quick update on Lucy: Despite my fears of causing further stress to her when she's already going through the stress of molting, today I tried Tiffany's idea of capturing her in a small travel cage and setting her alone in a dark room for a while -- in hopes that may induce an attitude adjustment. I left her alone for about a half-hour, to contemplate her sins, so to speak. The jury's still out on whether it had any long-term effect; we'll see how she is tomorrow. But it definitely DID calm her down for the short-term, at least! She has been rather quiet and sedate the entire rest of the day. She has made only a few peeps since her isolation, but otherwise eating and drinking normally. FINALLY, some peace and quiet around this place! Am keeping my fingers crossed in hopes the chilling effect will not wear off overnight.

While I had her out of the cage, I decided to take care of something I had been neglecting for some time -- trimming her nails, which had grown quite menacing-looking. I had never handled either bird until today, and I'll admit I was not at ease about having to do it. Yet I knew she really needed it. The good news: I didn't cut too far and cause any bloodshed. (In being overly cautious, I don't think I cut quite enough -- they're still too long.)

The bad news: Unfortunately, I was so on edge, concerned that I would cut into the vein, that my hands began sweating profusely during the trimming. Not a good thing to happen while you're holding a warm feathery lil creature, which only caused the sweating to worsen! By the time I finished, the poor lil lady was drenched in my sweat, almost as if she'd just had a bath. I didn't realize how bad it was until I had released her inside the cage again, or I would've put her back in the travel cage and dumped a cup of water over her to wash her off before returning her to their main cage. Maybe next time I'll try wearing gloves. I'm assuming latex wouldn't be a problem?

She spent the next 2 hours preening and biting her legs at times, and as she was doing so I realized she was ingesting the oil and salt from my sweat. I know that traces of any vitamins or medications we take are emitted through our sweat....should I be concerned about her ingesting those traces? I suppose it's too late now; what's done is done. Unless someone thinks I should still hose her down, I'll just assume it won't affect her. I put fresh bathwater in their cage afterward in hopes she would take a nice long one. Of course, she didn't.

I'm attaching a photo, taken immediately after the trimming. If you think SHE looks utterly terrified, you should have seen MY face during the procedure!

Well Yea she looks terrified... out of a dark room and into the sweaty palms of that mad man with clippers

I wouldn't worry about the sweat she got on her... they will really preen excessively after being held. It's more like they don't like their feathers flattened or ruffled and they will fret over them endlessly.
Good job on the toenails and I do hope you have some peace and quiet for a change