Gouldian Finch mutations

[debbie276]

It is fairly easy to tell PB and LB.
The PB males will be dark and the hens lighter.
LB males will be a richer PB hen color and the hens are very pale almost a pink color.
When I get to my computer I will try to post pictures

[debbie276]

Hens, RH.WB.Green and BH.LB.Green

Male and female PB

Male LB

[tqcenter2002c]

Thank you Debbie!

I was wondering myself if they truly exist since no one is talking about them - besides that site mentioning them I have not found anything about them over the net.

I am still wondering and trying to understand the Gouldian Genetics as much as I can. Reading any piece of information regarding a color mutation --> and I am starting my investigation.

I would be happy to get more clearance regarding the ino mutation and the lutino and albino mutations.

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But first I would be happy if anyone can help me seeing and understanding the differences between any head color (RH or BH or YH) with white breast and 1f yellow (GOLD) vs 2f Yellow (YELLOW) Phenotypes?

When I come up with images over the net - How can I tell that what I see is:
RH (or BH or YH) WB - GOLD (1f) or YELLOW (2F). It makes it hard for me to see that and I would be happy to have guidelines on how to recognize a GOLD phenotype from a YELLOW phenotype White Breasted mutation.

I would be happy if someone can assist and hoping with pictures that I can see the differences between the two.
Still, the ino mutation is very intriguing and I would be happy to learn more about it - Albino and Lutino.

Thank you all for your assistance
all the best
Eric

[tqcenter2002c]

Thank you so much, Debbie,
I was writing my reply.. and I have not seen the wonderful pictures you have uploaded.

Lilac Breasted is a true mutation? I have thought it was debatable since there are not many sites indicating this mutation as much as I expected them to do, with a true mutation.

I have also seen tables that represent Only Purple and White Breasted and NOT mentioning the LB at all.. and further more I have been viewing sites that sell Gouldian Finches and they are mentioning ONLY the PB and WB not mentioning the LB at all.

For me it would be hard to say exactly if what I see is PB or LB?
Thanks again for the Pictures Debbie,

All the Best
Eric,

[debbie276]

Yes LB is a true mutation, it's been around for a while.
You have to be very careful believing everything you read from the internet. Remember ANYBODY can start a website and state whatever they like, true or not.

The most complete and factual site with most if not all the information you want on genetics is Tiffany's site. You should take time to read each part of the genetics section. http://www.gouldiansgalore.com/gouldian-genetics.html

[tqcenter2002c]

Thanks Debbie,
I have read about the LB Mutation and I really understand its place in the Gouldian Mutation.

But as far as I can go with recognizing the Gouldians - PB or LB it is a bit difficult right now. Maybe because I have seen all the LB Gouldians as PB without noticing that there is a difference between the two.

Here is a Yellow Head - Normal Gouldian that I am not sure. I think it is LB.


The chest color is vivid violet and not intense to the purplish blue - that is my way of seeing it.
Is that correct?

Thanks
All the best.
Eric

[debbie276]

It is very difficult to know by pictures. Depending on lighting and the lens of the camera the same bird can appear different in multiple pictures.
Do you have any gouldians?
The best way to explain PB vs LB is that the male PB is a dark purple and the hen a lighter purple. Male LB are as light as a PB hen and LB hens are a pinkish tint.

From the picture I would say that is a Male YH.PB.Green

[tqcenter2002c]

Thanks again Debbie.

Now I have more understanding of the difference between PB and LB - It is nice and easy to understand it genetically but when time come I would be happy to be able to tell them apart - and been able to point out which one is PB and which is LB.

Since it is very hard to tell by the picture I assume that is why online stores did not put LB for sale - since it was hard to tell them apart by pictures - and maybe all were put as PB (even if some are LB - the Buyer should know if they are looking to get LB specifically).

Thanks - I really understand the LB and PB now.
now it is time for me to understand the difference between
(RBY)H WB GOLD (SF(?) 1F) to (RBY)H WB YELLOW (DF(?) 2F).

I assume that I already understand the difference in the PB versions of the above - That I am not even sure they have a coloring change at all besides the Bluish head ring that the SF has and the almost white head ring that the DF has.

I would be happy to know if there is a way to tell them apart?
(RBY)H WB GOLD vs (RBY)H WB YELLOW.

Since I want to build the database as accurate as possible I would like to be able to have the correct information inside it with also tips and guidelines.

Thanks,
Eric

[tqcenter2002c]

Wow!!! I can not believe it
I have found my answer right in the BEST OF ALL SITES EVER! -- > GOULDIANS GALORE!

A lot of people ask me how to tell the difference between a SF Pastel Green and DF Pastel Green that is WB or LB. You can typically make an educated guess by checking the color of his bib. In a SF male this will appear gray in color, in a DF bird it will be very nearly white; because the two Pastel genes are completely blocking the expression of black pigment. Also, the turquoise band behind the mask of SF Pastel Greens tends to be much brighter/evident in SFs than on DFs.

It is the bib color!!!
Now after founding the answer for the question that I was looking for.. I need to find Pictures that I will see the difference with my own eyes.

Is there any pictures that you know of that can assist me with that task?
I can't find a lot of pictures with yellow Gouldians and hoping that members of this forum would have them to share with me.

Edited:
I have also found this as well. Here

White-breasted Pastel Green birds display purer Yellow than Purple-breasted Pastel Green birds, similar to the Australian Yellow (see below). Blue markings become pale Blue or Blue-grey in SF, and White in DF.
White-breasted Pastel Blue birds appear more Silver or White than Purple-breasted Pastel Blue birds. Blue markings become pale Blue or Blue-grey in SF, and White in DF.

It seems to be with Blusih coloring all together on both WB(LB) and PB.
I might need a professional elaboration on that as well.

Just making sure that I understand it: (now that I have read both it makes sense to me.. and I hope that I am correct!)

This is a Red Head White-breasted Pastel Green SF:

The bib is the head circle that I have mentioned in the PB as well. Correct?
And this one is Yellow Head White-breasted Pastel Green DF:

Correct?

Thanks in advance,
All the best
Eric

[debbie276]

I think you are getting it!
Tiffany's site has lots of good pictures, you'll have to poke around in there some more.

[tqcenter2002c]

Thanks.
Yes I am feeling that I do getting it and understanding it better then i did before.

Will look for good pictures at Tiffany's.
Just in case - I want to be sure that I do really got it also regarding the LB.
This is BH LB Green,

Correct?
The breast has a velveted-like coloring of gentle pinkish coloring. That why I think it is LB.

Thanks for all your help!
All the Best.
Eric

[Sally]

I'm not very knowledgeable about Gouldians, but you have gotten good advice from those who do know a lot about them. I did want to welcome you to the forum! There's lots of good reading at www.finchinfo.com, where you will find many articles on finch care. If you put your general location in your profile, it makes it easier for members to help you.

[tqcenter2002c]

Thanks Sally, Glad to be here!!
And greetings to those present.

Hope that I was right on the BH-LB-GB mutation.
I have been learning a lot on mutations and I was wondering if these tables can be of any assistance:


Since they indicate only 36 Mutations (Not including the LB, But I have already added the LB in my count - Thanks to Debbie) - in the table, WB part, it mentioned that there is a Golden (SF Yellow) body phenotype and Yellow (DF Yellow) body phenotype. Are they different mutations?
I know that I have almost learned everything about it just now, But for my way of seeing it - SF vs DF is NOT always different obvious Mutations and the Genetic Factorial is to be taken in consideration and so that I am NOT sure if SF is a Total different Mutation then DF of the same. i.e Yellow phenotype.
Same question goes with Silver (SF yellow) vs Silver (DF Yellow). It might be right for one case and not quite right for another case. Just to be sure -

• Are the above types of body Phenotype in both tables agreed by all?
• And are these the 6 type of Body phenotype mentioned here more then once?

---

Still learning the subject and willing to study it as much it will need to understand it.
Just to make sure, These are the 6 Phenotype in PB?

• Green
• Pastel Green - AKA Lime(?) - Sea Green(?)
• Yellow SF - AKA Golden(?)
• Blue
• Pastel Blue - AKA Dilute(?)
• Silver (Maybe this is Dilute)

And the followings are the 6 Phenotype in WB/LB?

• Green
• Yellow SF - AKA Golden(?)
• Yellow DF - AKA Yellow
• Blue
• Silver SF- AKA Dilute(?)
• Silver DF (Maybe this is Dilute)

I am hoping that with this I will get the answers I am looking for - And understand the varieties of names that are there all together. Since there are places that "miss-use" the body phenotype naming regarding mutations they provide info on.

Thanks so much for your help.
Best of luck.
Eric

[wilkifam]

Is it really over 100 mutations or combinations of the 3 head, breast and body colors?

Red head
Black head
Yellow head

Purple Breast
Lilac breast
White Breast

Green aka normal
Pastel aka Yellow
Blue

I think it is because they show the Male and female of each.....

[debbie276]

That chart is very confusing. I was wondering where you were getting the "golden" term from.
Hens can only be SF males can be either SF or DF so personally I don't see them as 2 different mutations. Pastel is Pastel SF or DF.