Gouldian Finch mutations

[debbie276]

http://www.gouldiansgalore.com/advanced-genetics.html

Gouldian feathers are comprised of five basic colors:
Blue, Red, Yellow, Reddish-Brown and Black.

The four pigmented colors (Red, Reddish-Brown, Yellow, and Black) are categorized into two varieties:
I: Carotenoids
II: Melanins
Lutein is generally understood to be responsible for the yellow pigment produced and is absorbed from food. Canthaxanthin is generally understood to be responsible for the red pigmentation in Goulds and is synthesized from Lutein. Therefore, it should be obvious right away that a bird that can not produce Lutein, can also not produce Canthaxanthin (this is why there are no "red bodied" gouldians!).
Eumelanin is responsible for black pigmentation, whereas Phaeomelanin is responsible for Reddish-Brown pigmentation.

Normal Body - No pigments or structural colors are affected.
Yellow + Blue = Green

Yellow Body - Eumelanin and Phaeomelanin both can not be produced. The structural blue color in the feathers is dependent upon eumelanin, and since this can not be produced due to the pastel gene, the resultant bird appears to us as visually yellow. In other words, the ordinally green body color is "erased" because the structural blue is inhibited.
Yellow - (Blue) = Yellow

Blue Body - Neither carotenoid colors (lutein or canthaxanthin) can be produced, creating a blue bodied bird by default. Remember - blue body color is not produced by food synthesis, it is purely the result of feather structure. This explains why genetically red head blue bodied birds do not fully express the red head color (although why it is not completely subdued I am not sure) but instead appear anywhere from salmon to beige in color.
Blue - (Yellow) = Blue

Silver Body - we have an interesting situation. We are essentially combining the characteristics of a yellow bird with those of a blue bird. This results in a bird that is not able to produce either melanin or carotenoids. No melanins mean no black, and no carotenoids mean no red or yellow. However, the yellow prevents the structural blue from showing up as well - so we're left with a bird that is hardly capable of producing any color at all and appears as off-white or silvery in coloration.
- (Yellow) - (Blue) = Silver

Breast Color:
Breast colors lack carotenoid colors and are essentially the result of combining the melanins with the Structural blue color. It is thought that the different breast colors occur via the following combinations or lack of melanins:
Eumelanin + Phaeomelanin = Purple Breast
Eumelanin only = Lilac Breast
Phaeomelanin only = Blue Breast (speculation; most Blue Breasts are thought to also be the result of melanistic birds)
Neither Eumelanin nor Phaeomelanin = White Breast
Remember - these are inherited separately from body color!

[tqcenter2002c]

Thank you so much Debbie!
I have read this article and I was getting more confused..

The idea of having 54 Mutations that comes from 3 head coloring and 3 breast coloring will end up giving us 6 Body phenotypes..
And the confusion is getting bigger while learning the subject more intensively

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Since you have mentioned ONLY 4 and we need 6 - what are the missing two phenotypes?
Head Colors:

1. Red
2. Black
3. Yellow

Breast Colors:

1. Purple
2. Lilac
3. White

And you have mentioned the following 4 Body Colors
Body Colors:

1. Normal Green
2. Yellow
3. Blue
4. Silver

I am still having at least 2 Body colors short..
I am sure that it is a combination of one of2 or 3 of what we already have. Or maybe a Dilute or Pastel color of them is recognized as a mutation
I am really sorry that I am not getting it through since it is not that clear for me and I know that experts like you will have the simplest way to explain it to me with ease.

• Are there 6 Body Colors or less or even more?

---

I did liked the idea of explaining the coloring using "coloring math" - I did understand the Green - it was the easiest one : Yellow + Blue = Green..
But when it comes to understanding the others I got confused - I ma not familiar with the negative terms and using (COLOR)..
You have mentioned: Yellow - (Blue) = Yellow I thought (mathematically terms) it would be Green - Blue = Yellow. I am sure that Genetically it would explain better than what I have in mind.
Also, it is hard for me to understand the Silver color. But I am sure it is me trying to do mathematics when genetics have a different way of sum and sub colors.

Thanks so much for your kind help.
All the best
Eric

[monotwine]

Gouldians galore had the most thorough and well explained information on Gouldian genetics that I ever found. In order to eventually understand it I likened Gouldian genetics to a fruit salad.
Every ingredient is an entity on its own and has its own history etc e.g. head, breast or back colours and you mix them all together to make a salad.

Understanding each individual element of the salad allows you to understand the whole.

PS the first person to produce a white breasted Gouldian was Fred Barnicoat from South Africa. I'd have to look it up when he had it.
Lovely encouraging gentleman and he still keeps birds.

[tqcenter2002c]

Thanks monotwine!
Yes, I almost do the same - It make sense when you see it that way.
But sometimes you have to deal with out of the ordinary and decide if what you see is what you think you see or not?

Like in this image: Is it BH-WB-Silver? I thought that the Black is reduced when you have the Silver phenotype. and it is white breasted as well... How come this bird has the grayish head?
I am not even getting into the question is it SF or DF? that I would be happy to understand - I can see the bluish bib that makes it SF, correct?
The picture:

monotwine said: "Gouldians galore had the most thorough and well-explained information on Gouldian genetics that I ever found."

Agree 100% (and even more )
I am into the salad now and I can't understand exactly why the combination that I put in the bowl makes it look different from what I expected it to be? (can't be melanistic, correct?)

Thanks in advanced.
Have a wonderful day
Eric

[debbie276]

It is a BH.WB.SF Pastel Blue. Because he only has one Pastel gene all black areas are grey. Because he has a white breast the body color is white and not the typical blue that a BH.PB.SF Pastel Blue would have

[tqcenter2002c]

Thank you, Debbie.
Sorry for going back to this subject once more... I have read almost everything I can understand from Tiffany's Great Site and I am still with a need to have a clearance on the Body Phenotypes...
Are these all 6 Body phenotype variations on BOTH PB and WB/LB?

• Green
• SF Pastel (SF Yellow) - Does it have a Direct name without the SF? let's say Gold?
• Yellow AKA Pastel
• Blue
• SF Pastel Blue (SF Yellow Blue) - Is this Silver??
• Pastel Blue (Yellow Blue)

In a way, I want to be able to define the body phenotypes that will be a single color not depended on the gene factorial - Is that doable?
That is why I wanted to see if Gold can be SF Yellow?
And I have read about the Silver body and Tiffany's say:

SF Pastel Blue (Pastel Males and Silver Hens)

That can be Silver for males as well? I know that hens are silver when having SF - so How can I define a mutation when the hens are called Silver and the males are NOT SILVER?
The confusion starts when I can't have a pure mutation like in Normal green I have i.e. Redheaded white breast green - both males and females. since it si not sex-linked I can have a pure mutation on both males and females.
How come there is no standard name for each mutation?
If we have a mutation that the female is Silver because of a Single Factory of a gene - let's call the male of SF Pastel Blue - Silver as well... That make sense to me!
DB Pastel Blue should be called a unique name of its own - Even if there are NO DF females.

I would be glad to know what are the base body phenotypes that I can start my database on without the need to change it afterward. It is important for me to have the CORRECT body Phenotypes to rely all the Database on and using the I will build the pages for the mutations.

It would help me a lot to be able to have the CORRECT naming of the Body Phenotypes and the amount of them as well. And also are they the same for all three Breast colors?

Thank you!!!
Appreciate your help so much.
Happy Breeding.
Eric

[debbie276]

Are these all 6 Body phenotype variations on BOTH PB and WB/LB?
Green
SF Pastel (SF Yellow) - Does it have a Direct name without the SF? let's say Gold?
Yellow AKA Pastel
Blue
SF Pastel Blue (SF Yellow Blue) - Is this Silver??
Pastel Blue (Yellow Blue)

In a way, I want to be able to define the body phenotypes that will be a single color not depended on the gene factorial - Is that doable?

It is VERY common to have variations in color tints in all mutations. I personally have never heard of "gold" as it is we have people using "dilute" aka SF Pastel, "pastel" aka SF Pastel Blue and even "silver" aka Pastel Blue. To add another will just confuse things even more.

SF Pastel Blue on a male gouldian with PB will appear blue with all black areas grey, on a WB or LB male bird it will appear white bodied. A SF Pastel Blue hen is white bodied. For a male to be visually white bodied and PB he needs to be a DF Pastel Blue, meaning to have 2 pastel genes and 2 blue genes.

"I know that hens are silver when having SF - so How can I define a mutation when the hens are called Silver and the males are NOT SILVER?
A DF Pastel Blue can be called "silver" if that is the term you'd like to use.

If we have a mutation that the female is Silver because of a Single Factory of a gene - let's call the male of SF Pastel Blue - Silver as well... That make sense to me!
But he would not be "silver" his body color would be blue unless he had a WB or LB.
Just as a PB.SF Pastel male would be visually green and not yellow like the SF Pastel hen.

Pastel is a sex-linked gene, which means cocks can be “Single-Factor” – SF – or “Double-Factor” – DF – for this Pastel gene while hens can only be SF with complete expression.

Also keep in mind that Australia has a Dilute unlike the "dilute" aka SF Pastel here, as well as an Australian yellow which also is very different then our Pastel aka Yellow.

[monotwine]

I think the naming of the mutations is dependent on the aviculturists in each country. SO you need to link the ones that are they same.
Here in South Africa we don't talk of pastels, that seems to be a USA thing. We only call them yellows (SF & DF)(SF that presents as washed out green is also called a dilute here) and blue or silvers (SF & DF).
Silvers mutations are to blue, as yellow is to green backs - so the same genetics apply.

[monotwine]

How I understood the mutations:

Yellow + Blue = Green (normal)
Green - Blue = Yellow
Green - Yellow = Blue

And then SF and DF affect the bird in the same way (it has nothing to do with the back colour - yet at the same time everything, but its more confusing to link it to back colour. I prefer to think of it more with how many genes of the "pastel" gene were inherited.
So if Mom and Dad both had a colour removed (yellow or blue) from normal then the babies would be DF.
If only one parent had a colour removed, only one "pastel" gene is inherited by offspring, then it has the SF mutation.
SF shows black and blue on pastel bodies
DF blocks all.

Then its simplified colour maths again:
blue (SF pastel) + pastel = silver
yellow (SF pastel) + pastel = more yellow

If you have ever tried to dilute base colour paints with an off white you will know how difficult it is to change yellow or green paint. Blue quickly becomes a very light shade, but the other two are very resistant.

This is very simplified, but this is how I got my head around it.

[tqcenter2002c]

Thank you Debbie - I understand exactly what you mean and I do understand your explanation.
Regarding my question if I may,

• Silver (Pastel Blue) with a Single or Double factorial genes can be called Silver, the same way that the hen of the mutation does NOT have the SF and DF?

Thanks mnotwine for giving me a simple way of seeing the color mutation. That really helped a lot
And I did see it the same way you have mentioned it - But at Tiffany's site, they have a different color calculation that puzzled me a bit.
I also thoght that :

• Yellow + Blue = Green (normal)
• Green - Blue = Yellow
• Green - Yellow = Blue

But Tiffany on her site mentioned a different pattern of calculation - I wonder why? and I would be happy to understand it.

And also... Yellow + Pastel = Golden??
Here is a Video that tries to cover all mutations.
They cover almost every one of the PB and WB mutations (all three heads) - No LB mutations at all...
So at this point,

• I don't really know where to put the so-called "sea-green", "Lime"

These greens that are a bit off the Normal - I think that they are Diluted mutations. I know that I can ignore them in my database since I can put all in one basket of Diluted versions. But since I want to work on accuracy - I need to be sure about that before moving forward and just doing that on my own.
These birds, What exactly are they?


One more question - Regarding the Pure White -

• How can I dilute all coloring to be pure white? Can I use white?

That mutation starts to confuse me a bit and I am not even sure how to deal with it? I can assume that the breast color is white (Can I?) and what is the head color? White? It can be one of all three, correct?

Thank you all for your help.
I am truly getting the hang of it and understand it more
It is always the best to learn from the professionals - and I am so glad I found you all here!
Great Forum.
Happy Bird-keeping.
Eric

[debbie276]

First pic is a BH.PB.Blue if the black color is washed out in the picture OR a BH.PB.SF Pastel Blue if the black color is truly grey.
Second pic a BH.PB.SF Pastel

How can I dilute all coloring to be pure white? Can I use white?
To get a pure white bird you need a BH.WB.Pastel Blue hen OR a BH.WB.DF Pastel Blue male

[debbie276]

The third bird in that video is a RH.LB.Pastel
8th bird is a BH.PB.SF Pastel
9th is a BH(YTB).LB.SF Pastel (YTB)=YellowTippedBeak, genetically a YH
11th is a BH.PB.SF Pastel Blue
13th SF Pastel
15th RH or YH there is no way of knowing unless you know the parents.PB.Pastel Blue hen
18th YH.WB.DF Pastel
20th again either YH or RH
21st BH.WB.Pastel Blue
23rd looks like a YH.WB.SF pastel because the bib looks greyish in the pic and I can see a bit of blue around the head color
24th YH or RH.WB.SF Pastel Blue
25th is BH.WB.SF Pastel Blue
26th is BH.WB.SF Pastel

[Dave]

If I can jump in here:

Almost since Gouldians showed up here, I shied away from them because I didn't understand the language. This discussion has helped a LOT.

I'd still implore people to use words instead of letters. BH.PB.SF, for instance, is inaccessible to me and probably to a lot of people.

In this and other areas, (i.e. Zebra breeders) I wish people would stop using acronyms and go back to using words. Acronyms are quicker but a lot of people are cut out of the conversation when they're used.

Thanks

[debbie276]

Dave, I totally understand and will try to write things out when I can.
It may help of you jot down on paper (at least for gouldians):
RH=RedHead
BH=BlackHead
YH=Yellow head

PB=PurpleBreast
WB=White Breast
LB=Lilac breast

SF=Single Factor
DF=Double Factor
"/"=split to

I always write head color breast color then body color separated by a period

If you ever need clarification on a post of mine please don't hesitate to ask

[tqcenter2002c]

Debbie: You are the Master!!!
Thank you, Debbie, for identifying almost every mutation in the movie that they have wrong and I you have answered me almost all the questions that I had about them as well.

As I see it up till now - You don't use Silver body phenotype at all - you use Pastel Blue instead, Correct?
In the video that I have sent, they used Golden. And you used SF Pastel - AKA Yellow (On the WB mutation at the end - no. 26).

I am starting to have the picture sort out a bit further and I am truly amazed on how all the pieces are assembled in the right direction.

So... Instead of calling a mutation "Pure White" I should be using: BH.WB.Pastel Blue (In my words it should be Black Head White Breast Silver)

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I would like to go back a bit and talk more about Pastel Green - That is out there and I have seen it called Dilute and sometimes using words that I don't really see the connection - and also See-Grass Green, Lime and more... I have not started collecting information about this mutation and I still don't know how to approach it?
This Picture: (Called See Green):
and also:
What are they REALLY?
Is it something to do with lack of black and also the breast looks Lilac and is really Purple?
This is something I would be happy to get answer for.

Thanks so much
All The best,
Eric