Gouldian Finch mutations

[tqcenter2002c]

Hello Everyone

I am new to this Forum but not new to Bird keeping and Finches at all.
I am so glad that I have found this forum and I wish all the best for each and every one of you.

I have a slightly complicated question (by my standards) regarding the Gouldian Mutations.
My question can be divided into two.

I am working on a big database on Finches in general and now I am working on the Lady Gouldian with all the mutations that are there.

I have learned a lot from sites on the internet that there are three parts that makes the Gouldian mutation differs one from each other: Head, Chest and Body.
Head have 3 colors and chest have 3 or 4 and body... that is a problem that I am also facing right now.

My question is:

• How many Gouldian Mutations are there?

And to that I would be happy if someone can assist me with understanding the Genetics of each one.
i.e. Red Head is Dominant Sex-Linked that refferes to the Normal only? (Purple breasted and Green Body) or also to all mutations that have Red Head - like the White Chest and Yellow body mutation?

The White Breast is Recessive mutation and the Red Head is Dominant mutation, What would I define the RH/WB/GB Mutation to be? That is an example - I would be happy if I could have a thumb rule or a Place that define the MUTATION itself by its Genetics and NOT the parts individually.

• Sums up for part one: Can some one help me understanding the Genetics of the Gouldian Finch Mutations?

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Part two of my question:
I have read all the History of Gouldian finches from the first time that John Gould have found the Red Head Wild type mutation in 1838 and further to these days when they have found some new mutations that they didn't know exist in the past.

But at this point I got puzzled - While investigating the RH/WB/BB mutation - I have found that The years mentioned were only for White Breasted mutations and not referring to the Head or Body colors at all and sometimes the Body color were mentioned without any referencing for the Chest or Head etc.. I hope that I am clear about this part of my question.

This is the site I have found the years information in - Great Site!!

• So.. My question is - Is there a place of which I can find the Year of EACH individual mutation and not the sum of the Gouldian History with a general referencing to the mutations?

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Also I mentioned in the beginning of my question: How many Gouldian Mutations are there? Does an SF and DF differs from each other and represent a mutation each of their own?

Thank you so much for your kind help.
I would be happy to get assistance on that and I would be glad to learn more from you all professional Birders and Bird keepers - to enrich the knowledge among our friend and new breeders to come with understanding more about these magnificent birds

Thank You!!!
Best,
Eric.

[lovezebs]

tqcenter2002c

Hi Eric,

Hi think you need to chat with our debbie276 .

To the best of my knowledge, she is one of our most knowledgable members, when it comes to Gouldian mutations and genetics.

Good luck.

[GouldianGuy]

Don't get me started about mutations and nomenclature... I called a Single factor yellow and single factor green [normal]) bodied finch "Dilute" and some crusties on the Australian forum called them "Pastel" and following my rebuttal using info from http://www.finchinfo.com went off about how I was part of a young generation that didn't care about what the older crowd said... Just saying, mutations can be a contentious subject.

Otherwise, Welcome to the forum! http://www.finchinfo.com/genetics/lady_ ... /index.php is probably on of the best ways to start learning about Gouldian genetics.

I then recommend going to http://www.finchbreederdatabase.com/php ... cies_id=29 and playing around with the different combos and selecting either "count phenotype" and "count genotype" then vice versa to get an appreciation for the phenotype associated with both single factor and double factor versions.

I think someone here in a previous post mentioned that there were upwards of 200+ different combinations of Gouldian finch! (I think that includes heterozygotes too)

Have fun! And I agree debbie276 knows her stuff!

[lovezebs]

GouldianGuy

Yes, it tends to get confusing, lol
And yes, it makes it even more so, when different mutations, are called by different names in different countries, lol.

I just recently ran into this with Owl Finch mutations as well.

[debbie276]

Hi Eric

Here's a pretty good explanation of the different colors available
http://www.finchinfo.com/genetics/lady_ ... /index.php

There are 3 different head colors, red black and yellow
There are 3 different breast colors, purple white and lilac.
There are 3 different body genetics, green, pastel and blue.

The difference in SF and DF are for males.
The SF Pastel for example have only one pastel gene which makes the body color a lighter green and all black areas a grey color. This is also called "dilute" and SF Yellow. FYI, Australia has a true dilute which is not the same gentics as the SF Pastel which can make a confusing conversation. The DF Pastel has 2 pastel genes and the body color is yellow.

SF Pastel Blue is one pastel gene and 2 Blue genes making the male a lighter Blue and all black areas a grey color. This can also be called a "pastel" and SF Yellow Blue. DF Pastel Blue is 2 pastel genes and 2 blue genes making a white bodied male bird.

A white breast can change the visual color that you see in males but it doesn't change the genetics. Many times people refer by only 1 or 2 body parts which can confuse things on the combinations where breast color in males make a difference. When asking for possible chick combinations the Head.Breast.Body colors are a must.

They are also times that the bird can have a hidden gene that you wouldn't know was there, referred to as "split to". Split to is typed as "/" for example RH/YH (RedHead split to YellowHead)

Another good site would be Tiffany's http://www.gouldiansgalore.com/

A good history timeline of the gouldian up to 2013 when the first sale of a USA Lutnos is here:
http://gfinches2.com/lutino_history_timeline

[tqcenter2002c]

Thank you all so much Elana, GouldianGuy and Debbie.
I am starting to understand the logic behind the Gouldian Genetics now.

It will take me a while till I'll be inside with my arms and legs to get the best of understanding the Genetics.

Debbie:
So I understand that there are only three stages of genetics in the Gouldians?

• Sex-Linked Dominant for all Red Headed Gouldies.
• Sex-Linked Recessive for all Black Headed Gouldies.
• Autosomal Recessive for all Yellow Headed Gouldies.

Is that correct? The idea that I understood from what you have answered me was.. The Genetic comes from the Head (That make sense)

When dealing with Genetics some will say that there are only Two Breast colors (since the Lilac is DF or SF of the White - not sure which - But the idea is to have Lilac a recognized mutation to start with).
I am quoting from here

The gene for the lilac chest (breast) is autosomal recessive to the purple and autosomal dominant to the white chest (breast).

Before I go on with the mutation description in my database - I want to make sure that what I assumed above is correct, So every time I see Red-Head mutation I will describe it as Sex-Linked Dominant and so on with the other two. Correct?

Also I understand the there is NO yellow body at all? So I can't have a mutation as RH/WB/YB? I have seen places where they mentioned Yellow as a body more then once and also SF differs from DF with the coloring of the Pencil line around the face mask where the SF has more bluish rather then the all white of the DF.
So.. Is there a Yellow Body coloring or not, I am getting a bit confused here

I have learned that the body coloring impact the head coloring in some mutations - the same as you kindly explained in your answer. So.. my question is to be: Does the Genetic changes with Bodies? means when the body is Blue do I need to change the Genetic of the Gouldian? Red Head is Dominant - But when the Blue body come along the head turn to Cinnamon and that is NOT red anymore.. So I need to reference the Genetic according to the body coloring now?

the most confusing Body types are: Pastel and Dilute. Not sure I even understand them at all. Since they have been referred as different names on so many sites I got confused and I could not put my mind to study them correctly.

And thanks a lot for the second reference to years in the Gouldian History - that would be helping me as well as the one I already have.

Just so I will have the whole picture (the size of the picture I am thinking of right now is smaller then the one I know you all expert have ..) - Lutino? What is that in Genetic terms? And does it also called Albino? I have seen a whole white Gouldian - that is also something I can't see myself getting from the Genetic combo from the Head Chest and Body with the coloring mentioned.
How can a White Gouldian be created? I am sure that it involved Double Factoring of a sort.. But here I am just guessing.

I do have so many questions regarding the mutations and I am sure they will pop up while I build the database I am working on. For now I would be happy to get answered for the questions I aske already above.

Again, thanks for your help and assistance.
Thank You!
Eric

[debbie276]

Head color detailed explanation:
http://www.gouldiansgalore.com/head-color.html

Purple breast (PB) is an autosomal dominant trait (dominant to both white and lilac breast).
Lilac breast (LB) is an autosomal trait which is recessive to purple breast but dominant to white breast.
White breast (WB) is autosomal recessive to both purple and lilac breast.

Quoted from Tiffany's
http://www.gouldiansgalore.com/breast-color.html
These traits can be understood as different "alleles" of one gene. Meaning - breast color is defined by one gene, and there are three different alleles (read: varieties) available - one for Purple, one for Lilac and one for White. This means that no bird can ever be triply split for each allele. i.e., no purple/white/lilac bird will ever exist!

Purple breast is an autosomal dominant trait to both lilac and white. Cocks and hens can both be SF or DF for Purple breast. However, a bird that possesses at least one copy of the purple allele will always be visually purple breasted. The only way to know if your bird is split for lilac or white is by test breeding it to a lilac or white bird - if you get lilac or white babies, you know your bird is split! Purple breasted birds occur in all body color mutations.

Lilac breast is recessive to Purple but dominant to White. A bird that is visually Lilac Breast will either be DF Lilac or Lilac/White. The Lilac breast color is interesting particularly in males due to the variation of Lilac color seen. This appears to be directly related to the amount of melanin reduction in males. That is to say, a normal bodied male that is LB will have the darkest Lilac color. A SF Yellow male that is RH will be slightly lighter, DF Yellow RH males even lighter, and BH DF Yellow males being the lightest lilac.

White breast is recessive to both Purple and Lilac. The only way a bird will be visually white breasted is if it is DF for the White allele (no visually WB bird will be "split" for any of the other two breast colors).

[debbie276]

Body colors:
Green AKA Normal
Pastel AKA Yellow
Blue
Pastel Blue AKA "silver"

Tiffany's site has very complete explanations
http://www.gouldiansgalore.com/body-color.html

in part, please go to her site and read the complete article
SF Pastel Green (Dilute or SF Yellow Cocks & Yellow Hens)
The "Pastel" gene is sex-linked (located on the Z chromosome) and incompletely dominant to the genes responsible for the green wild type bird. You can think of “Incomplete Dominance” as the genes mixing cohesively together, with neither being dominant over the other, blending smoothly, like mixing red and white paint together to produce pink colored paint. It is a sex-linked gene, which means cocks can be “Single-Factor” – SF – or “Double-Factor” – DF – for this Pastel gene while hens can only be SF with complete expression. The Pastel gene works by interfering with black pigment present in the feather, called “eumelanin,” so any area which would normally be black on a green bird appears smokey gray or white/off-white. This is why genetically black headed birds fully expressing the Pastel gene appear to have white or near-white heads. The absence of eumelanin also prevents structural blue color, turning the bird yellow. Hens, by default (being ZY genetically) can only be SF - the presence of the Pastel gene will always result in the total inhibition of melanin producing a visually yellow bird. The full name for this is “SF Pastel Green Hen” – because the Pastel is taking place on a bird that is of Green body background.

SF Pastel Blue (Pastel Males and Silver Hens)
SF Pastel Blue describes a bird that is genetically blue bodied and carries a single copy of the Pastel gene. Since females, again, can only ever be SF for the Pastel gene, SF Pastel Blue females will always be visually "Silver," and this is how the general population refers to them.
SF Pastel Blue cocks are exactly as their name describes - genetically blue bodied cocks that are SF for the Pastel gene. In the US, SF Pastel Blues that are purple breasted are generally referred to as "Pastel" or "Pastel Blue" and this color only occurs in purple-breasted cocks. Because the single Pastel gene only partially masks green body, black pigmentation, and structural blue color, the overall look of the bird is a light powdery blue color. As with SF Pastel Green cocks, SF Pastel Blue males that are white or lilac breast will not appear “Pastel Blue” but will instead appear visually Silver in body color. They are identifiable as SF Pastel Blues in much the same way SF Pastel Greens are identified – the amount of turquoise present in the band around the mask and the color in the bib.
As with SF Pastel Greens, the normally black area(s) on the bird will appear grey (as opposed to white), so black-headed SF Pastel Blue cocks will have grey heads, and the normally black bib of red/orange headed SF cocks will be grey. Also, because the blue genes suppress the expression of red and orange, any areas of the bird which would normally be red or orange (such as the head or also yellow belly of the bird) will appear salmon or off-white, respectively.

[wilkifam]

Green backs (Normals), Single factor Yellows (Dilutes) males only, Yellow Backs, Blue Backs, Pastel Blue, Silvers, Albinos.....

These all come in 3 different head colors

These all come in 3 different chest colors.

This poster is the best way to see them all

http://glamgouldians.com/product-gouldian-poster.php

[GouldianGuy]

Just remember, a bird can have a "dominant" head colour but a recessive breast colour, just like humans. Not genetically linked but certainly phenotypically linked

[tqcenter2002c]

Thank you all for your help

Debbie: Thanks for your explanation and elaboration on the Gouldian Genetics. that is a lot of info and I will be happy to learn this and enrich my knowledge and understanding. Still learning and I really love it!!

Lori: Thanks for the link to the poster you have sent me and the summary of the genetics guidelines. Regarding the poster - it is mentioned there that it covers OVER 100 Gouldian Mutations - Is that right? There are over 100 Gouldian mutations out there? Is this Theoretically or real? I would be happy to know that since I am willing to cover (as much as I can) all the Gouldian Mutations that REALLY OUT there.

GouldianGuy: Thanks, I will put in mind and would be happy to understand more about the Gouldian Phenotypes.

Thanks so much!
All the Best.
Eric

[debbie276]

Is it really over 100 mutations or combinations of the 3 head, breast and body colors?

Red head
Black head
Yellow head

Purple Breast
Lilac breast
White Breast

Green aka normal
Pastel aka Yellow
Blue

[GouldianGuy]

3 x 3 x 6 = 54
?

[tqcenter2002c]

So I can understand that there are 54 Gouldian Mutations and not over 100 as it mentioned on the Poster page. I was a bit warried about this number since I wanted to "try" and cover all mutations that REALLY exists.

And if I count Purple and White only I stand on 36 Mutations ONLY.
I am not sure that I will be able to state the difference between Lilac Breasted mutation and Purple Breasted since there are so many shades of Purple that you might consider them as Lilac.

So.. If I am not mistaken .. following the calculation provided and standing by GouldianGuy count - there are only 54 Mutations? is that Correct?

This puzzles me a lot since I have seen in the History pages on the internet : Here mentioned..that in 1984 there were..

- red-breasted Gouldians in South Africa
- black-breasted Gouldians in Germany
- Gouldians with black backs and wings
- Gouldians with red between the breast and stomach

lets take Black Breasted (not melanistic) mutation ... and if that exist would it take 3 head colors and 6 types of body phenotype? if that is so! Then we will need to add 18 more (for Black Breasted)..And then we will stand at 72 Mutations.. But are there any proofs that Black Breasted Gouldians truly exist? or even any of the others that were mentioned in the Page I have quoted above?

I have also seen that there is also blue breasted - Is it New!?

Thanks for your kind help
all the best
Eric

[debbie276]

Never heard of black breast. The red line they talk about is called a fusion bar which seems to be disappearing from the originals. It is documented in old pictures, not a mutation.
If you do a search "fusion bar" on this site several posts should come up to read.