Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

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Ian

Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

Post by Ian » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:14 am

Hi Everyone,

There have been a lot of posts here with regard to individuals who have experienced there Green Singers going mute! Reports range from newly acquired birds to those that have been established for some time in there current homes. These individuals have also stated that there appear to be no discernable environmental or dietry changes that have taken place. I have briefly replied to some of these posts with less than `insightful` information and am in no doubt that there birds continue to remain silent (at least for what I hope to be a brief interlude anway). I have taken the opportunity to delve further into this but because of the relativily non existent information on this species, progress has been unsatisfactory to say the least. The species shares the same genetic ancestory as the Canary (Seriunus Canarius) and I have pursued what I would hope to be some clues along these lines. However there can be marked differences in behaviour even between closely related species so this is not always most appropriate. But it is a start and a tangent that can hopefully provide some answers (or at least clues) as to what environmental/ husbandry changes we can make to ensure that this bird of which has a wonderfull and cheerful mood lifting song continues to sing and increase its popularity.

I have kept this species for two years now and have `observed the following`

1. I have only kept pairs and not individual males, all my males have sung in both cage and aviary. Although singing greatly increased when the males could here the other males (especially prior to breeding time).
2. My first pair were kept in an aviary and the male would sing sporadically especially during fine weather (sunny). It continued to sing when the female was nesting.
3. When three pairs were housed together in a birdroom in late September (to commence breeding). They continued to sing (especially when I intruded and then left) but not as much as when they were apart (i.e greater distance and/ blind to each others presence).
4. They have now entered there quietest period (sing occasionally for shorter bursts) but all are moulting to some degree.
5. Song strength and complexity differs between individual males.
6. I have a fixed photoperiod (artificial lighting) which gives a constant unchanging 15 hours a day.
7. Wild bird song also contributed to vocal `challenges`.

Now for what I have read;

Male birds experience a testosterone surge prior to breeding which is believed to be triggered by an incremental photo period. This surge enlarges/ enhances there vocal strength/ range and thus they sing for longer and more often.

My counter to this with regard to the Green Singer is that although there range is quite vast they do occur near to the equator and there geographical expanse does not incur large shifts in the photoperiod (day length). I would argue that its possibly about a seasonal shift of 1 hour (mean average accross the range). Temperatures are fairly constant however and there are distinct seasonal changes in rainfall.

However it can be argued that a sudden shift in the photoperiod could trigger hormonal imbalances that might stop the bird form singing for a while until it adjusts (changing location . i.e from the shop to its new home).

Some Canary owners feed `song food` - I have no idea what the science behind this is?

While a bird is undergoing a moult it will not sing and this can last up to sixteen weeks.

Some people state that once the Canary has the female (placed in the same cage) then singing will cease. Hence `song cages` where the male is isolated.

I have found that this made no difference to my males who seemed to become more excited and vocal when singing to mark there territory (common amongst other birds like Thrushes etc who continue to sing from a high point to state its territory even when breeding). My males also had females (even new mates) placed with them in cages.

Although there is overwhelming evidence that males will sing more (of any finch species) when in a small song cage.

An intersting item I have recently read is that a Canary living in an unchanging photoperiod will die prematurely? (hormonal overload/imbalance). Green Singers are very long lived birds and I am not aware of what the `moult` trigger is for these birds. Do they moult after breeding or as a reaction to temperature and dietry changes (austerity diet/ falling protein levels)??

In short there are no written studies that can confirm the `exact` requirements of these birds to include propogation of optimum singing levels (fit healthy birds sing more and for longer??). I am sure that these birds are triggered by some aspect of environment of which the only one I currently am aware of is elevated dietry protein. There breeding cycle does however seem to be governed by an internal clock or some other factor?? as here in the UK there are no Southern Hemispherical environmental factors but despite this they still come into condition during the September / October period.

Therefore if anybody can contribute any insights they may have indirectly discovered that is a stimulus to this bird singing or any other Cardulean species (especially Southern Hemisperical) then please contribute to this thread in the hope that collectively we may move forward with understanding this species.

Thankyou
Regards
Ian
:)

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Re: Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

Post by solo_birdlover » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:37 am

Thank you. Mine is starting to sing again. He'll almost always start singing as soon as I play some music, especially when it's a little loud.

Ian

Re: Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

Post by Ian » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:00 am

solo_birdlover wrote:Thank you. Mine is starting to sing again. He'll almost always start singing as soon as I play some music, especially when it's a little loud.
That does seem to be a stimulus to singing birds, one of my birds is in full song while another is still a little quiet. I have read that some species are unaffected by the moult and continue to sing through this (African Citril and Red Siskin).

I am still scouring the internet and other sources with regard to further clarification on this process.

Watch this space! :D

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Re: Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

Post by Rayray » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:47 pm

for sure i keep my eyes open for some new info / stories from you :)

keep us posted

Ian

Re: Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

Post by Ian » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:05 pm

Rayray wrote:for sure i keep my eyes open for some new info / stories from you :)

keep us posted
Thankyou Ray,

This is an amazing species and to think that i could possibly contribute a micro amount of new knowledge to help with the understanding , care and stimuli of these birds would be great. I love a challenge and I love this bird so together with a tenacious appetite for knowledge and learning I hope to shed some light on this particular bird/ branch of birds.

If however after all this researching/experimenting my aviarys looked half as good as yours then that would be a real result!! 8) 8)

Keep posting the pictures Ray.

:D

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Re: Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

Post by CandoAviary » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:31 pm

[quote="Ian"]
Some Canary owners feed `song food` - I have no idea what the science behind this is?
quote]


I use to breed a lot of canaries. The science behind the feeding of song food, also refered to as treat is that it is a higher protein blend of seed. Also some hemp.
As you pointed out moulting birds don't sing.... they need protein to have a successful, quick moult. Hence the better diet to speed your bird back into singing. Also the hemp will have an affect on the males drive... which increases song. Too much hemp can make the males overly aggressive though. Also caution with feeding hens too much hemp.
So it's not the song food that makes the bird sing...It's the food that gets him in prime condition.... and we know whether a canary or a green singer that is in it'e prime conditioning sings their hearts out.

Good observations you are doing and documenting. That is the kind of species keeping I like to do. I dwelve into a species or 2 and study them in depth. Thanks for sharing your findings :D

Ian

Re: Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

Post by Ian » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:58 pm

Hi Michelle (I think ?),

Good to hear from you again, ok so its about optimising dietry protein etc. That kind of makes sense but I was hoping for a more specific answer (maybe a certain oil or something) so I guess one does not exist (at present) :) . I am currently reading `Tim Birkheads`, `The Red Canary` which has some valuble insights to the singing stimuli of Carduelan Finches which is by the way an excellent book to anyone who may be interested and an immensely factual packed book for anybody interested in the historical origins of Aviculture.

Within this book it details various mechanisms that are used to induce birds to sing (although by todays standards not very acceptable) and I am trying to assign impact values to the various known triggers that have been established as contributory factors to increased sustainability of bird song in the Serinus species. Usually there is a single overwhelming factor that provided various other minor factors have been met is the `pivotal` factor in registering success.....But being biological entities it might not be as straight forward as attributing numerical quantitites to observed stimuli :?

But collectively with `practical ` input I am hoping that we can `narrow` the field somewhat. :D

Thankyou for your contribution and pleeeeease continue to contribute to this puzzle.
Mant Thanks
Ian

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Re: Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

Post by CandoAviary » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:37 pm

It is Candace...... but I have been called worse :lol:

Here is the ingredients of a good song food. Maybe this will offer some insight. There was a write up, I believe in Canary Tales but I will have to find it about the diet and song... been many years since I bred those singers and my memory just doesn't retain all that I read anymore. I will try to find it.

CANARY/FINCH TREAT AND SONG FOOD

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:

CRUDE PROTEIN – NOT LESS THAN 15%; CRUDE FAT – NOT LESS THAN 5%; CRUDE FIBRE – NOT MORE THAN 12%; MOISTURE (MAX) – 14%; ASH (MAX) – 6%

Ingredients: Thistle Seed, Canary Grass Seed, Millet Seed, Rape Seed, Oat Groats, Flax Seed, Sesame Seed, Shelled Sunflower Seed Chips, Cracked Corn, Peanut Hearts, Lettuce Seed, Anise Seed, Kibbled Biscuits Made With Wheat Meal, Corn Meal, Soy Bean Meal, Bean Meal, Water, Shredded Coconut, Whole Eggs, Bone Meal, Fresh Meat, Fresh Poultry Meat, Fresh and Dehydrated: Carrots, Dandelions, Chicory, Kales, Grapes, Bananas, Apples, Oranges, Pears, Apricots, Fresh Fish, Milk, Honey, Corn Syrup Solid, Casein, Salt, Brewers Yeast, Yellow Beta Carotene, Cod Liver Oil, Wheat Germ Oil, Dextrose Vitamin Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Choline Bitartrate, Folic Acid, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite, Ascorbic Acid, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Ethylene Diamine Supplement, Calcium Carbonate and Calcium Propionate Added To Preserve Freshness, Artificial and Natural Color and Flavor.

ABBA 1800 is sold 100% satisfaction guaranteed – or you may return the unused portion for a refund of the unused portion - NO OTHER WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, STORE IN A COOL DRY PLACE.

Feeding Instructions: Add 1 teaspoon or (finger cup) full every other day per bird. Do not over feed. Let the bird eat it 100%. It can also be used as a conditioning food.

Ian

Re: Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

Post by Ian » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:12 pm

A little information I have found with regard to song;

It has been hypothesized that song production in birds is energy intensive and raises metabolic rate. Birds that are very fit and in top condition will therefore sing more than birds that have less energy to spare on singing (like during the moult) as singing imposes a fitness cost to the bird. Singing is therefore used as a signal to the female of condition and also to rival males as a way of saying `I am super fit stay away from my territory`.

This answers part of the behaviour that one of my singers elicits when I leave the bird room. The bird in question is currently raising his third brood of chicks and is quite protective of his chicks when I enter the bird room. When I leave and close the door he bursts into a sustained moment of song which is now clearly a `warning` to me that he is very fit and that i should back off.

Cold nights (or draughts) drain a bird of its energy and less free energy is available to sing (energy costly) and explains why Canarys stop singing when in a draught (or avairy birds after a cold night).

I once left my heater turned up to max in my birdroom by accident and it was about 30 degrees celcius in there (I adjusted it in the morning and then did not revisit them until the following days evening ). When I discovered this (it was like a sauna when I entered) the starnge thing was that all of my birds were very active and in fine song.

So although i may be stating the obvious it would seem that birds that are not singing as much as they should be are clearly not in the peak of physical condition (i wonder if a small song cage conserves energy by restricting energy intensive flying!!??).

Interestingly singing has also been found to increase mass loss overnight in Nightingales (which would stop weakened birds).

I am currently reading several scientific articles at the moment which I have managed to dig up so hopefully a more in explanation of the facts will follow shortly.

:)

Ian

Re: Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

Post by Ian » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:55 pm

Another piece of information suggests that nights which are too short (and cool) could cause an energy imbalance with too much being expended during the day and not enough rest at night. I remember reading somewhere that this has proved to be the cause of many a Canarys loss of song. Apparently if the nights are warm then this does not pose so much of a problem.

Perhaps my 15 hour days are too much - I will double check there natural habitat photoperiod (about 12 hours I believe). If this is good enough for chick rearing in the wild then it must be good enough in captivity.

I am not sure if anybody has noticed but the more warmer the nights in a finches natural habitat then the smaller the finch is in body mass and vice versa.

Siberian Golds versus European , Timor Zebs versus Normal Zebs and Large Green Singers (Southern tip of Africa and definitely cooler and not tropical) versus Little Green Singers (equatorial Africa). There are numerous examples of this in nature with the most distinct examples being sub species of the same bird but in climate extremes. I was recently in tenerife where I noticed a lot of Sub Species of common European birds mostly of a smaller mass . The need to have the physical scope to eat more/less and store more energy/less energy (body fat) is clearly evident and if we do not ensure that our captive enviroments replicate the energy balanced environments of there natural habitat then the physical health of the bird will be compromised.

Domestication does change this long term by artifical selection of the birds that do best in our environment and perpetuating there genetics through breeding (these birds would not do well in there own environments). This explains why domesticated birds through many generations are more healthy and free breeding because there energy balance perfectly reflects our captive environemts.

Food for though!

More to follow.....

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Re: Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

Post by Rayray » Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:33 pm

a little info from me ...

i went today with my laptop into the birdhouse and lett them hear the adult green singer song ( from youtube ) , the both males was acting all crazy , flying around , hanging on the metal fronts , chasing the females , but ...... NOT singing at all .... :? :?
i tried this for like 15 mins and i gave up , they both are molting right now so i think this could be the problem they are not singing at all , i will try this again in a few weeks .

ray

Ian

Re: Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singing!

Post by Ian » Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:59 am

Hi Ray,

I will try this too, Mine are all moulting at the moment too and quite heavily (aprt from maybe one male who continues to sing). The reaction is obviously territorial and I am in no doubt that this would induce song after the moult if it were repeated?

Regards
Ian

Ian

Re: Green Singing Finch (or any other species) Stopped Singi

Post by Ian » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:23 pm

All of my male Green Singers are now in full song :D

I have added a Canary to my aviary which is also now in full swing.

I will shortly begin to move the birds outside and separate/ ring the rest of the young in preparation for the next breeding season.

Today I removed one of my first born male`s and caged him on his own. I hung the cage in the garden and he virtually sung all day long (to the others he could hear) apart from mid-day when he had a rest.

It would seem that they will sing more when housed a distance from other males (similar experience last year).

My young male named `Mozart` was also dueling with the local Blackbirds and Wrens and a few times I heard some Blackbird notes in his song.

He is also remarkably tame and readily demonstrated his talents to an audience when my family visited. I will soon be able to video him and post it for all to see.

Interesting :)

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