Separating Fledges....too soon?

[delray]

lnlovesorange yeah, I didn't read the whole thing, I understand your problem, you should separate the parents that is causing the trouble. Keep one of them.

Thanks! I am really excited with the new job. It's really cool how crystal even put it in my profile! She's the best! Thanks, I will appreciate those pictures. Join instagram and follow us maybe!

[lovezebs]

lnlovesorange

Sleeping HEADLESS !?!?!?

~Elana~

[Sheather]

My zebras only stopped begging for food at six weeks. I wouldn't separate them any earlier - 30 days is much too early.

[MiaCarter]

This is a tough one.

There are a few things to consider.

Firstly, while he's not actively begging, he may still be getting food from the parents.
For instance, in my trio of zebras, I have one baby Tiny who is always begging. The other two just hang out nearby and come over with an open mouth when they see Tiny's getting fed.

So it's possible that could be happening. And if you remove him before he can sustain himself, he'll slowly fade and die. It's an awful way to die as it usually takes a couple weeks. They get behind the 8 ball and they start getting stressed and it's just an awful downhill spiral.

Another problem is socialization.
This is a super important time for him to learn the dynamics of being a zebra finch. If you remove him now, he won't have a chance to learn the social intricacies of finch-dom and the result is often a bird who can't get along with others.
You mentioned that you saw him standing up for himself more and more and that's key - he's learning how to be assertive and how to tell another bird to back off. That's important.
If you were to remove him now, you could end up with a bird who is either super dominant or super submissive, both of which could mean a lifetime of stressful social interactions (and finches are inherently social creatures, so this is a big part of their life.)

So you'd need to move him with at least 1 other bird. And the others don't sound ready yet.

The third problem is stress.
While some may be totally weaned by the month mark, they can't be separated from their parents yet due to the stress. They're still super fragile and any stress can cause them to get sick and die. So by waiting a few weeks, it gives them a chance to become more robust physically. And not just EB, but also his siblings, since at least 1 would need to accompany him.

You can see the impact of stress on fledglings in KarenB's babies in the newest and tiniest thread.
http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php ... 1&e=363761
They're getting fed and seem to be getting good care from adults, but it seems like stress has claimed 2 lives. Stress can be devastating for these little guys. And moving him would be a huge stressor.

So I know you may not like the answer, but I'd wait at least 2-3 more weeks, ideally another month or so.

I'd focus on trying to reduce the amount of conflict.
Removing or relocating perches could be one remedy.
Allowing them to spend more time outside of the cage could be another.

Removing the nest sounds like it would be a smart move. If the mom has laid another clutch, much of the aggression is likely revolving around that nest. That would also explain her ignoring the babies because she's incubating the new eggs.
So I would pull the nest and give them a shelf instead. You can make an easy corner shelf with cardboard if you don't have one on-hand.

Get 2 strips of cardboard and put them through the bars, making a triangle shape with the cage corner. These strips are the shelf supports.
Then, cover the shelf platform --- a piece of cardboard cut so it fits in the corner --- with a couple layers of paper towel and tape the paper towels into place on the bottom.
Then, you attach it to the two shelf supports.
If you had to place the shelf supports horizontally (in the case of horizontal cage bars), you just tape the platform onto the shelf support strips.
If the shelf supports are placed vertically, you cut four rectangular holes in the shelf platform piece. Then, cut the shelf support strips so there are two tabs on each one - the tabs fit into the rectangular holes in the shelf platform piece.
Or, if it's easier, you could just use a single platform piece of cardboard. Cut some slots along the edges and use zip ties to secure it to the cage walls. That would work too.

They just need somewhere to sleep together at night if you remove the nest.

[MiaCarter]

lovezebs - Sleeping headless = sleeping with their head tucked backwards under a wing. Look at them from the front and they look headless!

[lnlovesorange]

MiaCarter Thanks Mia, I took the nest out the day after the last one fledged, I gave them another 2 nights to make sure they were all really ready. 2 went back in the first night, after that, none of the babies went back in, so the nest has been gone for a while now. She is laying eggs in seed cup, so i removed the seed cup, now they just land on the cage floor. I gave them a flat platform but they don't use it, they don't like it. The babies all cuddle up in one of the larger seed cups (attached to the cage up high) and the mother sits on the perch next to them, and Melvin sits with her, or sometimes climbs in with the babies (it's actually kind of cute) So I won't move them, but like you said, about EB learning, I was just so afraid that he is learning this BAD behavior, of his parents picking on him and his brother, and I thought I saw him doing that to another one the other day... I was trying to get him away from learning the bad behavior, but everyone seems to think it's a bad idea, so I won't take him out. I tried to get the mother out last night. I got her into a cage, and into another room, and it was HORRIBLE. She was miserable, and freaked out, and Melvin just flew back and forth meeping, he'd Meep, look up listen and wait for Charlotte to answer, then fly crazily to the other side of the cage, this went on for hours... he COMPLETELY ignored the babies... trampling over them to get to the highest perch to look for Charlotte... it was horrible, it made me SOOO sad.....
Now, about letting them out more... I haven't let them out since the other day because I don't know how to get them back in. I used to leave the cage door open and they will just fly back in, but now if I leave the cage door open ALL the babie will fly out too.... I don't know how to get them back in, and the first couple times I did this (let them all out) it was fine because the babies jumped on my finger and I carried them back to the cage. But then Charlotte and Melvin won't go back in.... It's actually put a LOT of stress on me... cuz Obviously as you know, I LOVE my birds and I want what's best for them, and I HATE keeping them in a cage, I like to let them fly free, but i I ...don't know what to do!!! I'm regretting ever....ugh, I just have a lot of regrets... Thanks everyone for your input... Take care...

[MiaCarter]

Yeah, separating established mates can be a huge stressor.

I wouldn't worry about them picking up bad behavior from the parents. In fact, having a dominant bird around a juvenile would discourage that juvenile from becoming dominant.
So if EB is learning anything, it's how to stick up for himself (which is a good skill to have. If they don't stand up for themselves, they can get very hurt because a bully bird won't have incentive to back off.)

But generally, a juvenile isn't going to challenge an adult for the dominant role.
The dominant birds tend to get dominant once they reach adulthood. And it seems opportunistic in my experience. In other words, they don't seem to develop a dominant personality unless they're in a flock where there's no real alpha.
Youngsters tend to develop a personality that works with their particular flock. If you breed a bit more, you'll notice that siblings always seem to have a really tight bond and very good dynamics because they grow up together and develop complementary personalities.
(Of course, if you separate the siblings and put them in a different cages where they don't have contact, you'll notice that their role in the flock may change and if you were to reunite the siblings down the road, they may not mesh as well because they've evolved to accommodate their new flocks.)

As for out-of-cage time, it's just going to take some patience.
They'll need to learn to return to the cage.
If the parents already return to the cage, then the juveniles will likely learn this from them.
I teach them to go back by doing a specific routine.
I flicker the lights on and off 3 times and say "home time!" -- a warning that we're going to go home soon. (I picked light flickering because it gets their attention no matter where they are in the room and it's not frightening like a noise would be.)
Then I serve their favorite foods like egg and millet -- their dinner.
Then after I've doled out the food in the various cages, I flicker the lights on and off 3 times again and say "home now!"
It's my signal for "go home or I'm going to take you home."

Most are already home by the second time I flicker the lights.
I'd invest in a large fish net at Petco. It's great for catching finches. So you can catch them and return them until they learn to go home on their own.
They'll ultimately figure it out. Any stragglers usually go straight home when they see the net come out.
It takes the newcomers or youngsters a couple weeks to figure it out -- they can fly home on their own or I'll catch them and take them home myself.