Picking Zebras for Breeding- Drawing the Line

[xdartfrogx]

Ok, so I was always diligent with doing my best not to pair related zebras together for breeding in the past. I always assumed (I was a child/teen) that it just would not be healthy for the offspring or the hobby to have related birds breed. I did the same thing when I kept crested geckos for 8 years, no inside crossing. My question is, is there really any risk by breeding related individuals together? Like a male and female from the same clutch (when they are of age)? They only reason I dare to ask is I saw two beautiful pieds at a local shop, and my gut says they are from the same clutch. They are fawn, slightly penguin in pattern, yet pied. Like a mutt dog They are adorable, I am mesmerized by their patterns, and I am considering getting them, but my gut says don't go there since they are related. Suggestions, info, thoughts? Please be honest, I'm a factual loving person

[Sally]

Often birds in pet shops are related, as the pet shop owner purchased a clutch from a breeder. When I used to sell my birds to pet shops, that was the case. When I tried to tell the owner that the birds were siblings and should not be sold as pairs, he didn't care. One reason I stopped selling to pet shops.

You don't want to breed siblings together, as the offspring often will be smaller, less healthy, and can have defects. Line breeding (father to daughter, mother to son) can be done to enhance certain factors, but this should only be done by more experienced breeders, by keeping careful records, and by outcrossing after one generation. Also, remember that even if birds come from different clutches from the same parents, they are still siblings.

It would be better IMO to get just one of those Zebras, and then look around for another one from another source.

[dutch]

xdartfrogx....always get all males from one breeder and females from another

[MiaCarter]

Agreed with the others. I wouldn't risk it.

But here's an idea: you might ask the shop owner if he knows about their lineage. As Sally mentioned, many don't know or care, but some do.
Due to their similar and unique appearance, I imagine there's a high chance they're closely related, but if they're banded and the shop owner has records, it's possible you could be able to identify two that aren't related. Unlikely, but worth a shot.

I'd scoop a couple anyways as they sound gorgeous!

[yargnits]

we had a similar thread regarding fish on another site recently and whilst its frowned upon there are reasons people do it like breeding particular traits.

i think its common knowledge that it can lead to health problems and thats the reason people bring in new blood.

the thread on the fish site got interesting when people mentioned that man made environmental changes would mean less genetic diversity in wild caught fish and the fact that we dont acutally know how much inbreeding goes on in the wild.

this got me thinking and tbh i think it happens alot more than we realise in the wild with any animal. they dont particularly care themselves and nothing stops them.

think of a pride of lions where there is only one male ?
fish in a pond / lake
a wild pack of dogs constantly breed within the pack.

a group of gold finches in the wild in a bad year the numbers will be very low and the group keeps on breeding the following year. a few get eaten by cats or just die and they pair up again and chances are that they will pair up with a related finch because of the familiaralities.

the red kites we have in the uk were almost extinct 100 years ago with just a single pair remaining. now we have loads.

the result on the other thread was that it didnt seem so bad when you actually thought about it and rembered that they arnt human.
ideally you wouldnt unless you had to. you wouldnt do it if you were knowingly going to breed health issues.
and you would bring in new blood to strenthen the lines when possible.
its well known that lots of people line breed with lots of animals (and often for no other reason than proffit) people dont like to say even if they have done for good reasons though

however if its not necessary then dont risk the potential health issues.

we got our zebras from different shops and traveled a long way to make sure they werent related but then there are lots of zebras and they are easy to come by.

[JeveFinch]

Hi, I am new to finches and I am no expert. A lot of people seem to advise against inbreeding which is understandable and it isn't desired, but the breeder I got my male zebras from told me that in zebra finches there is often a lot of inbreeding and he knows lots of people who had bred brother and sister zebras together and the chicks have been fine. Now I don't know how true it is but I have heard that he is a very trustworthy person so although I would not intentionally breed my zebra finches I do believe him that it wouldn't be too big of an issue

[Matthias]

yargnits your point is exactly what i would be thinking whenever i read a thread were inbreeding is categorically dismissed. In nature there is no one to control their breeding routines/partners etc etc however i like u said i would not encourage it and as previously said would buy males from one breeder and females from another. i never bred related birds myself in fact (as far as i know)

[mayble]

You could always buy them just to enjoy having them, and not breed them.
You could also breed one to an unrelated bird, then breed one of those offspring back to the other, possibly related bird.

[mayble]

think of a pride of lions where there is only one male ?
fish in a pond / lake
a wild pack of dogs constantly breed within the pack.

I don't know about fish, but male lions leave the pack at maturity and travel great distance to find unrelated females. Canids (wolves and coyotes at least) will only have one breeding pair in a pack, and members will leave the area to start a new pack.
Most mammals avoid inbreeding through their social behavior.
As for birds, I can't say I've ever seen any studies on flock behavior. We've all seen or heard stories how inbreeding finches for several generations leads to deformities and weakness - check out many of the hoarder situations.

[MiaCarter]

I think if you are inbreeding it's important to realize the potential for deformity -- and be prepared to care for anyone who does survive.

I've heard of cases where they inbreed, but aren't really prepared to care for a bird with physical deformities.

[xdartfrogx]

Thanks everyone I ended up picking up just the male. Left the female behind. My gut just doesn't like the idea of the possibility of mixing ones that are directly related. I am keeping careful track of where everyone has come from, and I got info on the group I picked up as well. Luckily the lady had kept track of where she had purchased who from, so I also have a pretty good idea on their ages. That way I can stay away from the places where the others came from So as of now I have the following:

1 Grey Pied Crested male brown eyes (southern slo county aviary)
1 White Pied Male brown eyes (local Petsmart- I know, shame on me!)
1 Black Cheek Male red eyes (originated from northern slo county- from group of 5)
1 Normal Grey male brown eyes (northern ventura county- from group of 5)
1 Normal Grey female brown eyes (southern ventura county- from group of 5)
1 Fawn (OMG YAY!!!) female (northern sb county petsmart- from group of 5)
1 Hybrid Zebra X Society female (NG brown eye male is possibly the father- bred by lady [accidentally] that had the group of 5)

The hybrid is not going to have a man, I don't want her breeding. She's very pretty, but not worth the many risks. I intend to get a couple more females and call it good. I know what I want, vs. what I can probably find locally. Everyone is in quarantine at this point. Just have to wait for some time to pass In the meantime, I'm keeping my eyes peeled for pied females, penguins (in general), fawn, CFW, CCFW, or white. Maybe a BC female if I find one. I'd prefer the lighter colors at this point, but I'll just have to wait and see what else is out there. Hoping to find some literally in my hometown, or within 30 minutes of here. Been driving a lot for birdies lately At this point, (other than the hybrid), I am not concerned who pairs with who. I figure I will let them choose their own mates and see how it goes. I can always separate them if I have to.