Another newbie in need of LOTS OF HELP

[AnnTM]

Where do I begin?? What started out as 2 pair of zebra finches given to me by my neighbor fleeing to FL for the winter, has turned into 4 adults, 3 chicks and 4 (that I can see) eggs. I must admit I have never been a "bird" person, but I am enjoying my new roommates. I apologize in advance, for my lack of knowledge, but I DO want these little creatures to thrive, be happy and live stress free. So here goes.

Originally I had 4 chicks. (they are 2 weeks today 11/28) I lost one when it fell or was pushed out of the nest at about 1 week old. I thought I should make more room in the nest so I put 1 of the 3 remaining chicks in another nest. Seems to be doing quite well except the other female (is she called a hen??) is using that nest for HER eggs. Is this a bad thing?

The 2 chicks in the original nest also seem to be doing fine. My second question is: Do you think they will get along ok with the one I separated?

I don't SEE the parents going into the nest with the 2 chicks as often as they did when all 3 were together. They do go in but they don't seem to stay long. Is this normal?

My neighbor gave me a tiny cage with 4 birds and 2 nests. Too small! I bought a larger cage thinking it was sufficient. When I put them all in the cage, I quickly discovered that IT was still too small. I searched craigslist and found a flight cage measuring 60" H x 37" W x 23" D. Just right ! ! ! Now my last 2 questions for THIS post: Is there any way I can keep all the birds together and prevent them from reproducing, that will NOT stress them out? Is it necessary to separate the sexes to maintain just the number I have now?


I'm going to stop here, because I have about 100 more questions. I've read and researched the net extensively, but STILL feel unsure that I am doing all I should for these little cuties.

The research I've done is very helpful, but I digest information in small amounts much better than trying to read so much at one time. I thank you in advance, for any information you may have for me.

AnnTM

[Sally]

To answer your questions, yes, a female is called a hen, but female is also OK. Males are called either cocks or males. Or we even say boys and girls, doesn't matter. It would have been better to leave the three chicks together, the less interference with nests and babies the better. Since the other female is incubating eggs, there is always the chance that if the current baby is much older when these eggs hatch, she may stop feeding the older baby, or she may not feed the new hatchlings. Or she may happily feed everyone, you'll just have to keep an eye on things.

The two in the original nest should be fine with their sibling, even if they aren't raised together. Once they all fledge, they'll get acquainted.

Since the chicks are now two weeks old, they should be feathering out, and this is the stage at which the parents start spending lots less time in the nest. They return mostly just to feed and then leave right away.

That is a nice size cage. Ideally, the biggest measurement should be the horizontal width, but height gives them good exercise too. You will find that when the babies are sexual adults (which happens quite young in finches), they will inbreed at will when kept together in cages. The only sure way to prevent this is to maintain all female/all male cages.

Welcome to the forum! There's lots of good reading at www.finchinfo.com, where you will find many articles on housing, breeding, and especially the Zebra finch. If you put your general location in your profile, it makes it easier to answer locale-specific questions later on.

[Colt]

Sally pretty much covered it, but I would add if you want to keep all the birds together and do not want breeding I would remove any nests from the cage. A very determined hen may start laying in the seed cups but that's uncommon. Out of my 21 zebras I have one hen that does this. In that case I would simply pull any eggs. You can always purchase dummy eggs to let the girls sit on. While they are incubating they won't lay more and this prevents them from depleting their bodies of calcium in order to lay more eggs.

That being said...

Zebras have a habit of being a bit bossy with one another. All 21 of mine are currently in one large flight together as they are driving me insane in separate breeding cages. There are no nests for them to fight over and several feeding stations for them to disperse evenly through the flight. So keep an eye on everyone once the youngsters begin to mature. If you have any more questions feel free to ask. And welcome to the forum.

[AnnTM]

Thanks so much to SALLY and COLT for your welcome AND replying so quickly. As I mentioned, I am new and very anxious to keep everyone in the cage happy, healthy and stress free. (Just like I would like to be!) The information you've given me is most appreciated. Since you have offered......I guess I DO have a few more questions.
When the existing chicks fledge, will they actually be "kicked" out of the nest and fall hard on the bottom of the cage, or will they sort of float down. They look like they are really crammed into the nests at this point and I presume they will be leaving their nests soon.
I read somewhere that I shouldn't worry if they are on the bottom of the cage unless it is after sunset. If that is the case, what do I do with them after sunset. Should I put them back in their original nest or put them all in a bigger one I just bought. Also, should I put a soft bedding there for them if I am to put them in the new nest?
I have one 6" seed cup that is divided and one 4" seed cup. I also have one 6" water cup for drinking and another the same size on the bottom of the cage for bathing. Is this sufficient for their meals and do I leave the bathing cup in ALL the time.
In addition, I have a cuddlebone and one millet spray for them. For "entertainment" I have 2 swings. Does that sound like enough food, water and entertainment?
If I take the nests out so they stop laying eggs, where will they sleep and will it stress them out NOT having nests. Would it be less stressful or more so to keep the nests and take any new eggs?
Just one more question. How many finches could be kept HAPPY in the size cage I have?
I am sorry to ask so many fundamental questions, but I really knew NOTHING about birds until my neighbor said, "they are no trouble at all. You just feed them and clean the cage once a week and they will be fine". He never said that I would have to vacuum every day. LOL The corner their cage is in, is the cleanest area of my home.
Regarding my location, I am in Onset, MA, a section of Wareham, MA. Wareham is the "Gateway to the Cape". (Cape Cod)
Once again, thanks for taking the time to help me and for your warm welcome.

AnnTM, BayLee Rose (my dog-daughter), Chuck (my Beta) and my newest roommates: Amelia Earhart, Charles Lindberg, Sally Ride and Chuck Yeager (who were nameless until I adopted them)

[Sally]

For at least several days before babies fledge, they start exercising their wings by stretching them out. They will start looking out of the nest, and then the most adventurous will stand in the doorway of the nest (or edge, if it is an open nest). When they finally take off, they are quite capable of flight--perhaps not graceful flight, but flight nonetheless! They will either flutter to a nearby perch or flutter to the bottom of the cage. They are usually quite capable of making it back up to the nest as well.

As for the drinking cups, make certain that for now there is not a lot of deep water. Fledglings can drown in water that is too deep, so only have about 1" of water in those cups.

Have you been feeding any egg food? Babies need lots of protein for growing, so most breeders supply egg food while the babies are growing. This can be as simple as a hard-boiled egg that is mashed up, shell and all. If your birds don't like it that wet, you can dry it out with a little yellow cornmeal. Everyone develops their own favorite recipe for egg food, there are many listed on this forum. You would eventually want to limit the amount of egg food though, because it can be a trigger for breeding.

Finches don't need nests for sleeping, nests = breeding. They may love to sleep in those nests, but unless you maintain single sex cages, you will have breeding with nests available.

You have 7 Zebras now, with possibly 4 more on the way. According to the cage calculator at www.finchinfo.com, that would be too many birds, but that is a guide and primarily for breeding. Some people keep more birds than recommended and have no problems, some of it depends on the personalities of the birds.

[lovezebs]

AnnTM
Hi Ann, and welcome from Canada.

Congratulations on your birds, babies, and up coming egg babies.

I have a small army of Zebras (Zebbies) male and female, none related, with the exception of two brothers. They have their own huge flight cage. No nests at present, so no babies. Occasional eggs get removed.

Okay.....so your neighbor gave you the gift that keeps on giving, eh? Zebra Finches...... lucky girl. To control the egg/baby production:
-Remove all nests from flight (as soon as chicks leave them and fledge)
-If there are new eggs in these nests, discard them.
The reason for this, is that if they have nests, they will keep on breeding and breeding, and...
Brothers and sisters and parents and children, will mate and breed as well...Yikes and that is something you really don't want.

Zebras, can and will squabble and argue and fight.
That's just the nature of the species, so don't get alarmed.
If they really get into it, as in pulled feathers and blood shed, you may need to seperate the Gladiators into different cages.

Regarding diet:
-Finch seed mix (good quality)
-A nice mix of greens and other veg and fruit:
--romaine
--kale
--cucumbers
--broccoli
--carrot greens
--grated carrots
--beet greens
--baby spring mix
--corn on the cob
--apples
--orange
--banana
--chopped grapes

All of these can be offered, chopped or whole to hang from side of cage.
Hard boiled eggs, grated or mashed occasionally.
Boiled egg shells (they eat them like potato
chips)
Cuttle bone and mineral block and fortified grit.

Fresh water daily

That should get you off to a good start.

Also, you can add all sorts of fake greenery ($ store variety) such as vines, flowers and such to your flight, for privacy and for playing with, and to make it pretty. ( Just stay away from things with tiny pieces that can be removed and eaten.)

If you have any pictures of your birds, we would love to see them.
If you have any more questions, concerns, comments, or stories, we would love to hear them.

All the best of luck.

~Elana~

[AnnTM]

Hi Sally,
Thanks for all the great info. The seed mix I use has bits of dehydrated egg in it, but I was thinking I should add some more of my own mixture. I'm going to try that tomorrow.
Today #1 and #2 fledged from the nest they shared. Unfortunately, when I cleaned out the nest I found a dead chick in it (about a few days old). I knew I had 5 eggs, but then second guessed myself and assumed it must have been 4 since that was all the chicks I'd seen.
Also, the one chick I separated from the nest that had a chick fall out, is still in the other nest. I'm hoping I didn't confuse Mother Nature's process by putting him/her in a nest by itself. (Actually that is the nest where the eggs are - I wonder if it thinks it's his/her job to incubate the eggs???) Maybe I'm thinking too much.
#1 & #1 are sleeping in one of the full seed cups. I guess that is OK. I made sure to keep the water level low and I think, aside from the one who is still hiding, all will be OK. They are quite a sight to see...............but you and everyone else on this forum already knows that.
I HAVE been reading the other finch site you mentioned for a couple of weeks now, but this forum is really what I am going to rely on for most everything. I find corresponding on a one to one basis is far more effective for my senior brain.
I'll try to post some pictures soon. A bit difficult to get them to sit still for a photo shoot!
Thanks again,
AnnTM, BayLee Rose, Chuck and the 7 dwarfs

[AnnTM]

Hello Lovezebs,

Thank you for your informative (and humorous) post. I'm going to add some. greens to the cage tonight. Good idea. The list you provided is great. I'm looking forward to seeing them peck at all the goodies I add to their diet................slowly!

I hope it is safe to assume you've ready my reply to Sally. If so, you know I have 2 fledglings as of 10:30 this morning. #3 seems to want to stay in the nest a bit longer. Maybe it was the last to hatch???? I had 5 eggs originally. I lost one at about a week old and assumed I'd miscounted since I never saw more than 3 chicks after the first one passed. I lost the first one to drowning. I had no idea that the water cup was too close if a chick were to fall out of the nest. Live and learn, I guess. I felt terrible about that. I apparently DID count correctly because when I took the nest out today and cleaned it, I found another dead chick. It looked to be only a couple of days old. Another sad moment. I guess this type of thing happens in the wild too, so I'm trying not to beat myself up about it.

As I mentioned in my reply to Sally, I'm trying to get some good pics to post soon. They just move so darn fast!!! I do have a bunch of the adults, but I think I'll wait to post them until I get a couple of good ones of the chicks.

Thanks again for all your much needed info.

AnnTM and the gang
1 dog
1 beta
7 and counting finches

[AnnTM]

Hello all,

Just a quick update on my fledglings. #3 chick seemed to be trapped in its nest after #1 and #2 fledged Monday morning. Today, I removed some of the nesting material (mostly yarn) and within 10 minutes it made it's first flight to the bottom of the cage. I was beginning to get worried, but he/she seems to be doing fine.

Now the odd part is his/her shape. The first two that fledged yesterday look exactly like the adults, but smaller. Poor little #3 looks a bit different - short (from tip of beak to tail) and fat ! ! ! Don't know if it was caught in some of the nesting material and didn't develop quite right or perhaps finches come in all shapes and sizes.

Another thing that is bothering me is that this wee one hasn't quite mingled with the other 2 chicks from the same clutch. It DID make it to the top of the remaining nest (about 50" from the bottom of the cage) once. Its clutch mates were there along with 2 adults. It does fly a little now and then, but spends most of its time alone on the bottom of the cage. The adults ARE feeding it, but I feel so sad when I see it all alone so often. Do any of you think it might be because I separated it from the nest to make more room because of the one I lost that kept falling out??? If so, is there anything I can do to help #3 "fit in" a little better? Do you think I worry too much

Thanks for reading. Look forward to any feedback.

AnnTM and the crew ! ! !

[Sally]

#3 just may be younger than the other two, and so will take longer to develop. Since this is the one that was separated and put with another pair, they may not have fed it quite as much, hard to tell. When babies fledge a little early, they will spend more time on the bottom of the cage, as they are still building up strength in their wing muscles. As long as the parents are feeding it, I would not worry. Next time (if there is another clutch), I wouldn't interfere as much. These birds will surprise you with how well they can tolerate crowding in a nest.

[AnnTM]

Thank you, Sally.

Yes, today things seem better. The other 2 chicks are hanging around with him/her. I definitely agree with you. Too much interference from ME. I'm not sure if the eggs in the second nest are fertile or not. Gonna check them later. If not, I'm taking them out. If they are, I will let them hatch. I DID see that there are only 2 now. After that, I'm out of the breeding business. They are a whole lot of fun though and I'm happy my neighbor asked me to take them.

Thanks for responding to my questions. I'm so grateful this site is here for people like me.......clueless! ! !

atm & gang

[Sally]

We've all been there, done that. I can't tell you how many times I have peeked in a nest, even though I know most waxbills don't have much tolerance for nest checks. And I have no doubt there have been times that I have been too quick to take over hand feeding babies when the parents may have started feeding, had I just given them some time. We try to be helpful, it is just natural to want to step in and help. One of the most difficult aspects of breeding is to sit back and sometimes lose babies because we don't take over, but often times, letting nature take its course is the best way.

[AnnTM]

I totally agree, Sally about letting nature take its course. There is lots of activity in the cage and I think that is a good sign. I am very grateful for all your information and suggestions. It has been reassuring to me that all will be well.

AnnTM

[CHIRP]

Welcome to the forum, as I did you will learn a ton here, great people also my birds would have died long ago if it was not for the kind people who offered valuable info here.

Buy a bottle of AVI SUP for good health for your boys and girls - dont forget lots of egg food, mine love cucumber, good luck and good birding 2U

[AnnTM]

Thank you, Chirp!
I am a complete novice to finches. We had a parakeet when I was a kid, but it was my sisters and she took care of it. I didn't like it much as it only knew how to eat, sleep, poop and BITE ! ! ! Once it got a hold of your finger he wouldn't let go. Looking back on it, I think he might have been a parakeet/pit bull mix.
Now that I have these finches, I am really enjoying them. Unfortunately, I've lost at least 2 of the five chicks. I'm still not sure about the 3rd that I mentioned in my earlier posts. I held out little hope yesterday, but he/she is still in the nest and the adults ARE in and out. I think it best to let Mother Nature take care of this little one.
The information AND the peeps on this forum have really helped me get through this first clutch. I don't want to get into breeding, but as time goes on, I may put another nest in their cage, as the ones I have now start to get on in years.
Thanks again, for your "welcome post".

AnnTM and the crew