First birds in 40 years

[Sojourner]

I went to get catfood at PetSmart yesterday, and came home with 2 society finches and all the accoutrements as well.

My mother bred finches and canaries decades ago, so I'm not unfamiliar with small birds and their care. However I suspect some of that "knowledge" is rather dusty and uncertain, and some bits are sure to be obsolete. So I'll go down the list.

First, here are the birds:





CAGE:

The one I have:
http://www.petsmart.com/bird/cages-stan ... 3Dcategory

The one I want:
http://qualitycage.com/index.php?main_p ... ucts_id=72


I have a manzanita perch, a "fir" perch, an edible perch up high that they are completely ignoring and was probably intended for parakeets and/or cockatiels, a grape vine perch, and one of the standard dowel-type perches that came with the cage. The Grape vine perch is mounted in the front left corner; the fir perch is mounted at the back of the cage so it sticks out to just in front of the seed cup on the left side. The manzanita perch is currently mounted low on the right side, a bit back of center, and the "dowel" perch is mounted high in the cage just under the nest basket.

I am probably going to remove the dowel perch and put the manzanita perch up there instead. They just sit up as high as possible all the time anyway, which is probably sort of predictable given they've only been here for less than 24 hours and they still get all nervy when I come in the room.

I watched these guys for like 3 hours yesterday before purchasing. The PetSmart kids thought I was nuts. But I wanted to see how they all behaved together, especially given that the white one looks just ever so slightly raggedy.



At first I thought the light brown one was picking on the little white one, but as I watched I realized they are buds and they spent a fair amount of time preening each other. The other two society finches in the cage-quarium didn't really have much character. These 2 were much more interesting to watch.

So I have a cuttlefish thingy installed - and boy are those small and expensive these days! And I got a "Beak Buffer Beak Conditioning Stone" brand "All Living Things", which was stupid expensive, but they didn't have any mineral blocks. They haven't touched either one so far. We always kept both a cuttlefish and a mineral block in each cage and the birds would eventually use them both at various times. I assume these will do the same - eventually.

I picked up a bag of "All Living Things canary and Finch daily diet". All the bird seed they had in the store for caged finches seems to have dyed seed in it. Not my favorite thing, but apparently its not poisoning them in droves so I picked it up anyway.

For water I picked up an Insight "Clean Water Silo Waterer" - I can't tell for sure whether or not they are using it yet, but I have a bowl of water in the bottom of the cage just in case. Its currently mounted so that the part they drink out of is parallel to the upper dowel perch, a little less than 2" away. Should I mount that on the back so it sticks out perpendicular to the perch? Or move it closer to the perch but leave it parallel? They've got to be drinking water from somewhere or they'd be pushin' up daisies, to quote Monty Python in re birds (specifically parrots) whot are pinin' for the fjords.

THE GENDER ISSUE

So - given these are society finches - I have no idea whether I have girl(s) or boy(s). How-some-ever, the little white one sings along when I play this video of a young male Society finch singing (or trying to). He/she/it sounds just like that bird, and not like a cricket. What else do I need to look for to try to solve the gender identity crisis here at home?

OTHER STUFFS

So here are my other questions - most of these I'm getting mixed signals and conflicting information from various finch and vet sites:

1) pelleted feed - yea or nay? In combination with seeds, or just quit using the seed mixes?
2) hulled sunflower and nyjer which I feed to my wild birds - yea or nay for my caged birds, in small quantities, mixed with whatever else I am feeding them?
3) Cilantro - yea or nay?
4) Spinach - "not too often" I have read. How often is OK?
5) Frozen banana bits or other small fruit pieces (which are let to thaw first) - OK?
6) Sunflower leaves, if my wild birds don't get them all first - yea or nay?
7) Vitamin drops - yea or nay? If yea, is Oasis brand OK?
Mineral blocks - still ok, or are these now "not recommended" like sandpaper perch covers?
9) Speaking of things that are supposed to help wear down birdy nails - cement perches, "beach sand" perches, and "seashell" perches and all their ilk - yea or nay? If they work even a LITTLE bit, that would help me out, as I don't plan on trying to clip tiny birdy nails with my shiversome hands and lousy eyesight. It's really a 2 person job anyway. So anything that slows that down so I don't have to go pay as much as I paid for the birds to start with to have their nails done would be a good thing.
10) F.M. Brown's Cuttlebone Calcium Powder] ... PI6KMKIY4B - useful until I can get some oyster shell from the feed store? I wonder because it says "powdered".
11) Speaking of grit or gritty-like things - charcoal. Can I just use activated charcoal intended for aquariums? Crushed up that would be. If not, where can I get whatever I AM supposed to use?
12) Kaytee Pet Products Forti-Diet Pro Health Hi-Calcium Grit Small Bird Supplement - Useful?

So I have the seed cups that came with the cage, but the finch guys (or gals) are not using them. They are 2" deep - I'm wondering if that's too deep for little finchy guys. It is my habit (or was lo these 4 or 5 decades ago) to put a small amount of seed in the seed cups and refill as necessary during the day, because otherwise my finchly minions leave a layer of hulls on top of the rest of the seed, which is a pain to clear off. So I would put about what I estimated they could eat before giving up on any buried seed below that level, and then just dump the hulls and refill.

We also had much smaller seed cups, usually several per cage. So can they just not reach the seed down at the bottom of that 2" cup? They are eating the millet spray, so they're not starving - yet. I'm looking at replacing the ginormous seed cups that came with the cage with the old style egg cups and treat feeders like some of the ones on this page. The egg cups, the extra large treat cups, and the egg biscuit cups. Refilling is easier than blowing the hulls out. I'm thinking with only 2 birds I shouldn't need many and I shouldn't have to refill all that often.

Or maybe these would be better - though they are apparently 1.5" deep, is that possibly still to deep for my finchly minions? Have I another option?

And finally (for now, until I think of more stuff to question), way back when we had this small cage like thing that we hung off the front of the cage with both doors open. It was baited with goodies. When the birds fluttered in, you dropped the cage door on the trap cage and un-hung it from the main cage - voila, birds ready for transport!

I can't find anything like that for purchase. Its possible it was something my dad made - he did a lot of that kind of thing. Has anybody heard of or seen something like that?

Am I leaving anything out?

[Sally]

Welcome to the forum! Yes, lots of things have changed in 40 years, mainly the availability of so many supplies, though most of them have to be ordered online, and then there is the internet, which is a great source of information. As you have found, there are differing opinions out there. There are lots of good articles at http://www.finchinfo.com, and the forum members are always ready to help.

I couldn't find anything on the size of the cage you purchased at Petsmart. The one you want to get from Quality Cages is a great cage, I have some of these, though mine are slightly different. But 34x18x18 is a great size for a pair of Societies.

I always replace the dowel perches, I just prefer to cut natural branches from my yard. The different in size and thickness is good for their feet, while the dowels don't offer that difference.

I do offer my birds cuttlebones, but I don't use mineral blocks. I offer a mineral mix in a D-cup instead. Usually, when you get oystershell grit that is packaged for birds already, it has a small amount of charcoal in it. I have no idea about the charcoal for fish, I always get charcoal that is only for birds. Usually, you can find this stuff in a small box at most pet shops.

I'm not familiar with the seed mix you got, but my seed mix is made by Hagen, which makes All Living Things I believe. I agree, most of the seed mixes you find in stores contain the little colored bits, which I do not care for. The seed I get is available in Canada, but not so easy to find in the U.S.

I use tube waterers, and I place them parallel to the perch. I actually use one of those cement perches, which I place next to the water tube, so the birds have to land on it to get a drink of water. The one I use is from Hagen (or All Living Things), and is called a mini pedi-perch. Good thing you offered a bowl of water as well, as birds that aren't familiar with tube waterers have been known to die from dehydration, never figuring out where the water is.

Sometimes it takes a while to sex Societies, though if your white one is singing, then that is a male. You will know the other is a hen for sure if she lays an egg! lol

I love the vacation seed hoppers, or gravity seed hoppers as some call them. That should fit on the outside of the cage you have, as it will hook onto a door that slides up and down. With the Quality Cage that I have, I have to hang the seed hoppers on the inside of the cage, which works too.

You'll find lots of nutrition information at the Finch Information Center. Lots of debate on pelleted feeds, some love them, some hate them, some offer both seeds and pellets. To me, the main thing is to offer a variety, including veggies and egg food. My finches don't care for fruit.

One more thing, if you put your location in your general profile, it makes it easier to answer locale-specific questions later on.

[Sheather]

Hey there! Your birds look like a true pair, with the white specimen appearing male, based on the generally reliable but not always obvious differences in the shapes of their heads; I find males tend to have larger bills and eyes closer to the beaks in addition to slightly flatter heads. If the white one sings, it confirms that suspicion! I've had over 30 of this species at once and have had zero males that don't confirm to this and only one female who confused me, having an exceptionally heavy bill.

In regards to diet, a seed diet is perfectly acceptable if it's got a number of seeds - you want at minimum two millet types, canary seed, and oat groats in there - and you supplement daily with fresh foods - eggs and greens. On a fresh diet like this crumbled boiled egg should be provided a couple times each week or daily if there are babies around and a daily treat of one or two greens will be appreciated once they learn what they are in order to supply vitamins not present in seed alone. Romaine lettuce and broccoli are my daily staples and everyone's favorites, but depending on availability my birds also enjoy spinach, red lettuce, baby kale, and especially dandelions from the yard, though only the tender ones that grow in the springtime. It took a while but most of my finches do enjoy certain fruits, especially diced apples, though I think only my parakeets and canaries eat the grapes or berries I offer. My birds never liked bananas and I don't think sunflower leaves are really edible, are they? They're really coarse. My birds, finches included, do enjoy fresh mulberry and willow branches to nibble and play on. They eat the greens a bit. My birds won't eat cilantro nor any herb.

A pellet diet is more complete and it becomes less prudent to offer fresh foods for proper nutrition. However, they will still be greatly appreciated. In the end I think offering seed some days, pellets others, and fresh foods all the time is ideal. When I have birds in separate cages I go this route, but aviary birds get only seed and fresh foods as it becomes too difficult to offer the different foods and switch seed for pellets occasionally since all the bird species in there have different dietary needs and some simply will not eat pellets. Society finches typically accept them immediately with no problems - all mine eat them - but other species can be very difficult. I've yet to convince my diamond doves to even try them. My preferred pellet food for finches is Lafeber's. My birds also accepted fruity Zupreem but I no longer offer it due to the dyes.

My societies don't like cuttlebones, though my zebras and doves and budgies use them, I offer crushed eggshells instead for my finches. They all eat these with gusto and it supplies them their calcium in a way they seem to more readily use.

Society finches love swings, I would make it a priority to get them one. Mine prefer those with sturdy metal supports on either side that hook to the cage top and swing only back and forth rather than those which have one attachment and can spin a bit.

If you do have a male/female pair, your birds will eventually try to breed. This can take anywhere from days to months to happen, as some birds take longer to bond to mates than others. Eventually the male will begin to fill the nest basket with whatever he can - it's good to provide paper strips or soft grass at this time - and then you will see mating and in days following the hen will begin to lay eggs in the nest which the male has built mostly by himself. You have a few options in regards to this; if you want babies and the extra work it requires, leave them alone. They'll know what to do, even if they're really young - I've had societies only three months old make great parents helping older relatives out and knowing just what to do by instinct. Just provide extra nutritious foods every day.

If you don't want eggs, you can put pinholes in them with a needle near the bottom end so they don't develop, which will buy you 2 - 3 weeks of incubation before they realize the eggs are duds and lay more. You can simply remove them, but this will often make the hen lay more right away and can deplete her of calcium, making it urgent she always have lots on hand in the form of eggshells. You can also just not have a nest in the cage and provide some soft plastic greenery by perches for the birds to hide in and snuggle in to sleep. They will get used to this, too, but without a nest it's especially important they have privacy at night as they will be much more easily disturbed in their sleep and more vulnerable.

A society hen nearly always lays four eggs, but can possibly lay up to ten. A single pair shouldn't raise more than seven or the youngest may not get fed enough. Societies are unique in that multiple pairs may set on eggs together and all assist in rearing each other's young, however. I once had ten or so adults raise fifteen chicks cumulatively and at one point when the chicks grew up, they all would sleep together in an enormous nest basket. The nest you have now is fine for two birds to sleep but probably too small to rear chicks in. I use the largest available size for breeding.

I offer grit for my doves and my finches nibble it a bit. They also like to eat dirt out of potted plants. I don't think finches require it. I offer my finches food in two inch deep, five inch wide ceramic catfood bowls, which I think are the easiest ways to provide food and limit mess by catching hulls yet still easily letting birds get through them to eat. I offer water in small covered dishes to caged birds or large plant saucers to the aviary birds and they like to bathe in both. A dish for bathing should be offered in some way for finches at least every other day for good feather health.

Your cage is adequate but not ideal for finches. If you can let them out to fly regularly in the house, it's perfect. Finches love to fly free and will return home reliably at the end of the day once they've claimed the nest inside it as their bed. I don't think it's fair to keep birds locked in cages all the time and always allow my birds free flight.

[debbie276]

Welcome to the forum!

Here's a link to the Diet & Nutrition pages at the Finch Information Center's website
http://www.finchinfo.com/diet/index.php

Here's the Nutrients & Their Sources page so you know what foods offer what nutrition
http://www.finchinfo.com/diet/nutrients_and_sources.php

And here is the Safe, Toxic, & Unsafe Foods page so you know what not to give too much of
http://www.finchinfo.com/diet/safe_toxi ... _foods.php

best of luck

[Leo519]

Sojourner

Hello and welcome, this site is a wonderful place! So informative and there's an answer for just about any question you might have.
Thought I'd pitch in my two cents in addition to all of the useful information you already have: I think it's nearly impossible to find a store-bought finch seed mix that does not have those bits of dyed mystery pellets/seeds in it.

Over the past several months I've paid close attention to which particular seeds my finches eat and don't eat, and have since learned that you can order individual types of seed in varying quantities and combine them to make your own seed blend based on what your finches like and/or their varying needs (molting, breeding, etc.) It may seem a bit inconvenient at first, having to order it, but in the long run it's better for your birds and there is little to no waste

Two good sites I know of are
http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/
and another one called Herman Bros.
I'm in CA and so is Lady Gouldian Finch.com so I order from them.
I think Herman Bros is in the midwest and others on here are pleased with their service and product.

[dunker817]

Sojourner, welcome to the forum. There is a lot of information here that will keep you busy for hours reading. I'm new to finches so joining was the forum was the best thing I could have done. I've learned so much.

Every bird site has discussion about sunflower seeds. They are good to feed just not something you want to feed exclusively. As others stated variety is very important. If your finches really love sunflower seeds, you can use them as training treats. I would love for my fingers to sit on my finger someday.

With my birds' home I don't have a way to offer cuttle bone or mineral block. My cockatiels get them. My finches have to have vitamin and minerals added to their soft food. I'm still playing with a version they like that will also provide what is missing in a seed only diet. I use meal worms, blood worms, pellets, egg shell, bee pollen, a probiotic, and a trace mineral supplement. It might be over board but I guess time will tell.

Anyway, welcome again.

[Sojourner]

Well, I typed up a long response to everybody, but I must not have submitted it properly.

Sorry, I'm still being moderated so I don't see my own posts for hours. But I must have fumbled this one because several posts I submitted AFTER this one have shown up - so I obviously didn't submit it properly!

I'll do it over. I do thank everyone for their input. More later.

Ooops. Make that I WAS still being moderated. Apparently I'm in now as this one appeared AND I can edit it!

[Sally]

Sojourner Yep, you are in now, nice to be able to see your posts right away and not have to wait for one of the moderators to decide to log in and check the queue, eh?

[Sojourner]

Sojourner Yep, you are in now, nice to be able to see your posts right away and not have to wait for one of the moderators to decide to log in and check the queue, eh?

LOL, yeah, but for me the big thing is being able to correct the many, many mistakes I make, and noticing when I lose a post instead of posting it, LOL!