Zebra and Society Finches not getting along

[zebsoc]

Hi.

Please excuse my long intro.
I am having some problems with my finches.

2 zebra finches - 1 male and 1 female.
(the female turned out to be the Loudest female zebra i ever heard)

4 society finches ( researched online and 4 seemed to be considered the ideal minimum since they are so social).
3 females and 1 male society, since couldnt tell the sex. Had been trying for 4 females. He isnt a very loud singer. (He is all white with just a bit of black in the center of his back.)

male zebra died.

Squecky, female zebra, very depressed and lonely. She wasnt very nice to male tho at times. Pretty aggressive female.
I placed squecky in with the society finches. They hadn't seemed too happy with each other, and they actually bonded and got along a lot better together after.
During the fall and winter they Sometimes would let squecky sit with them, other times she would be alone.
A couple of the females were more tolerant of Squeaky.
I noticed that at times the 3 society females really liked to sit together, esp on the swing but didnt include squecky.

But squecky was quite chirping and active throughout the winter, moreso even then the 4 society. Very active and loud.

But in late Feb Squecky started plucking the other finches. And then she started chasing them all, not wanting them on Any of the perches (more perches then birds in large cage)Esp at night when the societys tried to gather to sleep, she would block them and scatter them (no nests in cage).

I separated Squecky and the white male society to a medium cage. Leaving the 3 female society together.

Poor Whitey the male isn't happy. He wants his females back and he seems to at times avoid Squecky esp when she gets in her active loud mood.
Squeaky is now trying to nest on the bottom of her cage (Whitey is Not joining her).
Sometimes Squeaky insists on grooming Whitey). I'm worried she will start plucking him.

The 3 female society are also Not getting along.
1 female is fawn colored, Carmel.
One is black and white (Blackie)
One is dark brown (Brownie).
Blackie and Brownie may be sisters.
So Carmel is alone at times. Carmel is the most active and curious.
Sometimes Brownie tho will choose to be with Carmel instead of with Blackie.
Blackie doesn't like Carmel in general. They can't be peaceful in the same perch without Brownie in between.
Blackie gets jealous of Carmel sitting and grooming Brownie and gets in the middle of them and drives Carmel away.
Brownie actually sometimes flies between the two when they start to peck at each other.

Carmel and Blackie need to be separated.

I like them all and don't want to have to choose between them.
But I only have so much room in my apartment.
And my health has been quite poor this winter.
I liked only 1 cage and 2 cages is absolute max.

Carmel spends a lot of time alone and seems to becoming less active. While the sisters eat, perch and preen together.

If i put whitey and carmel together I will be tempted to let them have babies.
they are both very beautiful, would love to see babies by them.
dont want babies tho, no room in apartment to add cages.
Cages are in Livingroom.

If I got Squeaky a Female zebra, is she likely to accept or bully her?
Will it stop her nesting determination?
or is she likely to start plucking again like she was with the society finches?

Squeaky has difficulty with any bird she has been with, makes it not seem possible to make things work. She is a robust lively strong willed bird that would make a good breeder but that isn't what I can have in my apartment.

if 2 female zebras I could give them nests without any babies. As long as no plucking tho.
Could Squeaky be a plucker in general since she was plucky any flinch that flew by her or tried to sit near her?

I could try blackie with squeaky but I worry those 2 could fight badly. Blackie only likes Brownie.
And that would leave Whitey odd one out tho.

I see no way to keep the 5 birds without adding both more cages and more birds.

Should I leave whitey with squeaky and let them try to work it out?
But they must not crossbreed and I'm afraid Squeaky will pluck Whitey like she was doing to all 4 of them before.

When I was trying to see who was male or female I separated the 4 society finches and Blackie and Brownie chirpped loudly for each other until I put them back together again.
If I got another Fawn colored Female society then maybe all 4 females would get along together?
But can't just go to the store and get a fawn colored female, could turn out to be another male instead.
(Also society finches are hard to get in my area)
The one store that carries them in my new town keep birds in filthy, tiny crowded conditions). Their animals often have health problems. )

Sorry for the long long history.

Any suggestions on solutions for peaceful co-existence?
Without adding birds nor cages?

The only solution seems have 2 society per cage. And rehome poor Squeaky?
Or add female to Squeaky?
But that means 3 cages, unless put male back and see how thing go with all 4 without Squeaky?

[Sally]

Personally, since Squeaky seems to be a fairly aggressive female, I would think about rehoming her. Since she has already exhibited plucking behavior, that is likely to continue, no matter who she is with.

That way, you could keep the four Societies. I'm surprised they aren't getting along in one cage, as Societies usually don't have compatibility problems. Perhaps with Squeaky out of the picture, it would calm things down.

As long as you have one male Society in the group of 4, you may face having eggs/babies. You definitely don't want a nest in with them, unless you do want breeding, as nests encourage breeding. Sometimes, it just takes some juggling around to work out the best combination of birds.

Welcome to the forum! There's lots of good reading at www.finchinfo.com, including some articles on compatibility.

[zebsoc]

Hi Sally

Thank you for your help and suggestions.
I was wondering once Squeaky started plucking if she would continue. You answered my concern on that.

I really like zebra finches. Squeaky is much more active and vocal then the 4 society finches, of course i also like the society as well. But would still like zebra too.
If I tried with 2 Young Sister female Zebras by themselves in one cage, would they be likely to get along long term, and no plucking?
Then I could give them a nest and nesting material without danger of babies.

Do female zebras tend to get along or do they become aggression towards each other esp with a nest in the cage?

[zebsoc]

Also thank you for the link. Lots of info ton read up on.

[lnlovesorange]

zebsoc Usually 2 female zebras will get along, unfortunately it sounds like your squeaky might be aggressive... sometimes they pluck to get padding for a nest trying to encourage their mate (whether it be male or female) to nest ... and as you said she is trying to nest so the plucking COULD be that, but from the sound of it I'd say she's just aggressive. If you got another female Zebra it MIGHT be ok... but then if it isn't that could mess up the dynamic of the societies... and you said you don't have room. Sounds to me like maybe a temperature change or some kind of a change (maybe in their diet) got squeaky into some sort of breeding mode. My female zebra was awesome, so good to her mate then once it was breeding time she was NASTY, and she had babies and she was NASTY to them chasing them plucking them... Oh she was Mommy Dearest, and unfortunately that happens with Zebras sometimes... You could get a female zebra, but keep in mind that these birds don't always care about Sex, if you got 2 females together that got along they may lay eggs, and lay and lay... (i know someone that had that happen) You have a tough situation. Sometimes they will work themselves out... but with an aggressor you don't want to put another less aggressive bird with her just to be picked on.... You could try to leave Squeaky along, but in a cage next to the Socie's so they can see and hear each other for a week or 2, then try reintroducing her with one of them, but don't put the society in the cage that she was in for those 2 weeks reinstroduce them together into a new cage (even if you just switch, or move stuff around and clean so it's not HER cage, you know?) Again, I'm not saying this wil work, but it's just a thought. And Zebras (like socieitie) like being with other birds to cuddle, and preen so this wouldn't be a permanant solution. Also, regarding what I said earlier have thier been climate changes (gotten warmer) or more sunlight or have you changed thier diet at all... I'm just wondering why the entire winter would have went by without an incident, and now this... Has it been just since the male Zebra died? I'm sorry I can't be more help you are in a bit of a predicament. Good luck maybe some more of our memebers will chime in with a little more knowledge than me...

[lnlovesorange]

OH btw what size are your cages?

[cindy]

I never mix societies with zebras, both male and female zebras are unpredictable and can be aggressive/territorial towards passive birds like societies.

I would either rehome her to someone with the understanding that she has to be housed with her own kind or find her a more tolerant male and house the two separately from the societies. Zebras social community is much different than that of societies. Your male might have had some underlying conditions the hen could sense or they basically did not mesh personality wise.

[zebsoc]

Hi lnlovesorange and Cindy

Thank you for your response and suggestions.

Yes the climate did change about a month ago when Squeaky became aggressive with the society finches. It warmed up considerably, the trees started to blossom.

I agree with you both.
Squeaky is aggressive in general and especial now that spring is in the air.
And zebras and society don't really mix since they have different ways.

Thank you for the suggestions on using a different cage if I try to introduce her to a female, tho I do agree that Squeaky being so aggressive it might not work out and then I have 2 females to deal with.

The cage they were in all together is about 20" long, 25" wide, 23 high.
The cage Squeaky and Whitey are in together right now is about 23" lng, 14" wide and 21 high.
In my new town these are the 2 largest cages available at pet store.

I tried yesterday to catch Whitey and just put him back with the society females but he was determined not to be caught and I left him with Squeaky. Today he was actually preening Squeaky.
When he sang for the first time Squeaky came to sit next to him instead of being at the opposite end of the cage (all the female society also all moved to the side of their cage closest to his cage.)

The society females are doing a lot of beak pecking at each other off and on. Is that just normal, because its spring time or signs of a problem because of them being 3 (odd one out problem)?

[Sojourner]

Is there a Petco near you? They have a cage they call the "finch habitat", usually around $50 I think?

Minimum size for a pair of finches is considered to be at least 30" long and 18"x18" on the other dimensions. The longer flight path you can give them, the happier and less aggressive towards each other they will be.

However, as others have noted, Societies are pretty passive easy-going birds, and I have never seen them get along well with the much pushier and more aggressive Zebras. Actually, its more that the Zebras won't get along with them. So even after you provide better cages for your guys, I still wouldn't try to keep those two species together in anything less than a full sized aviary (and maybe not then).

I will give you some links to some better sized cages for your guys:

$50 Petco Finch Habititat - I'm actually NOT SURE if this is the right one. It doesn't give dimensions. However I have seen in the stores boxes for cages labeled "Finch Habitat" which are 30x18x18. Upshot is - I see it in the stores, or at least some of them, but I don't find it online, unless this "You & Me" cage is the same one.

$44 30x18x18 Prevue "Flight" cage 30x18x18

$130 37.5 long x 20.5 tall x 18wide Prevue F075 divided breeder cage without stand I REALLY like this cage. It does go on sale for around $100 from time to time. This is the version WITHOUT the stand. You can stack these 2 or 3 high. They come with dowels to stabilize and help accomplish that. Remove the divider to make one long flight.

$150 37.5 long x 20.5 tall x 18wide Prevue F070 Divided Breeder Cage WITH stand. This is the version WITH the stand. You can stack at least 1 F075 on top - 2, if you secure them to the wall (which means not using the rolly-feet). Remove the divider to make one long flight.

There are other, taller cages, with options to perhaps connect some of them together to make even longer flight paths - ask again if you're interested in even larger cages.

Also - odd numbers of most finches are not a good idea. I'm not sure whether the best solution is to find another female, or put the solitary male back in with the other three. If the male society seems to be getting along with the female zebra now, it might be best to leave him and try to find another female for the odd trio. Hopefully someone else has something more definitive to say on that matter. But that's what I'd try to do, assuming your mismatched couple are getting along now and that continues into the future. You're odds will be better with more appropriately sized cages in any case.

Also, it makes a difference how well established the existing birds are. If you choose to try for a 4th female, I'd try to arrange it so that they all move into their new cage at the same time. One way to do that would be to move your mismatched pair into a larger cage, then quarantine the new female society in the (thoroughly cleaned) old cage. After at least a month keeping the 3 in the cage they're in now, and the new bird in the other cage (separated from the other birds - this is quarantine so you don't bring home a disease and spread it to the whole flock). Anyway, after a month or two, now you can move all 4 birds into the new larger cage at the same time. This way they'll all be new to the cage and there will be less squawking and fighting. Otherwise there are established patterns of behavior and marked territories that can lead to increased aggression towards the new bird by the established birds.

[zebsoc]

Hi Sojourner

Thank you for your help and for the cage suggestions/links.

Birds are a lot more complicated than I had originally thought.

There is no Petco in my new town, I do miss having one.

From your post:
There are other, taller cages, with options to perhaps connect some of them together to make even longer flight paths - ask again if you're interested in even larger cages.
-

Yes I would really like to get them a larger cage, with good length and also good head room.
Also Double sided is a must. This way I could try different combinations plus they would have good flight space when opened, and make it much easier and less stressful when cleaning.

The double sided cage link you provided looked really good but the company site specs for Inside height is only 17.5.
1 reviewer was going to take the bottom off and stack 2 on top to increase height but that seems a bit complicated and not sure how sturdy.

I liked that the cage was separate from the stand, since the height could be adjusted by placing something underbeath, due to bad knees and spinal problems.
Most cage with wheels the bottom is too low for me.

I don't know why they can't place a door on the Back of cages.
I wish I could put 2 cages back to back, so I could have a back door for easier accessible and not disturbing the birds.

buying online means needing to find someone that can put it together, wish they came made already like in the store.
The store here doesnt carry any cage with wheels.

This would be my IDEAL cage:
(I wish cages were custom made)

Divider in center (most important)
With Separate slide out grills and trays for each side

Cage height inside (20" minimum to 25" max)

Cage length 30" minimum (max 40")

Width 18" max
(Unless have side or back door for easy access)

Slide out Grill a must for cleaning access

Wheels
26" cage bottom height or ability to adjust cage height
Cage that can be detached/separate from stand allowing something to be added underneath to adjust height if low.

Lots of doors for access.
Slide doors (not spring)

Light colored

[Sojourner]

zebsoc

Wow, I missed answering this somehow! I distinctly remember typing an answer, yet here it is not, LOL!

Anyway - there are several double flight cages that could suit your purposes. But the ones with which I am most familiar are the Prevue cages. Other people like cages by A&E and HQ.

Here are the Prevue cages I like:

Prevue F040 cage

This cage is currently on sale for about $98, with Amazon coupon - make sure you are looking at the lowest cost version, which is currently $113 before the coupon

30x20x42 high (interior dimensions), 1/2" bar spacing, currently on sale for $113 with an extra $15 off in a "coupon" link you have to click. So total about $98 right now on Amazon. This cage requires some mechanical modification to hook 2 together end to end as the wire panels on the end are integrated with the frame - probably through a few small spot welds. That's the way it is on my F070/F075.

Prevue F050

36x23x47" high (interior dimensions), 1/2" bar spacing, currently $165 on amazon - that's about $10 less than usual. This one is very easy to hook 2 together end to end as the wire panels are separate from any permanent attachment to the frame, they have end wires that slide into pre-drilled holes in the frame pieces during assembly. So - just don't install them and zip tie the 2 cages together. Spacers may be needed if you want to be able to use the wheels - and use of the wheels will require additional horizontal stabilization along the length of both cages to minimize twisting when you try to move it. Even at that I wouldn't try to use the wheels on carpeting, at least not by one's self.

Prevue F030

37 long x 27 wide x 47-49" high at the peak, 10" shorter at the sides (internal dimensions). I'm not sure exactly what that internal dimension is as I've seen it reported anything from 47" to 49". This cage has 3/8" bar spacing, the others are 1/2". This cage HAS been connected in tandem to make a double flight cage, there are pictures and some discussion on another thread somewhere here.

Actually that 47" - 49" may be to the side walls rather than the peak. There is a posting here somewhere that I swear I JUST READ a little bit ago that lists the correct dimensions but I cannot for the life of me find it now. Hopefully someone who owns the cage will speak up and correct me if I've stated it incorrectly.

All of these have stands that add 12" to 20" to the height. The F030 has an overhang on the peaked roof that adds a couple inches to the external dimensions - this cage won't always fit through internal doors.

[zebsoc]

Sojourner -thank you for taking the time and for all the good info on some very nice cages.

I decided for easy cleaning to go with removable bottom grills and a divider so not worried about birds escaping (I have partial numbness in hands, arms and legs which worsens in cold weather and poor eyesight/balance problems, so I realized I had to go with the easiest cage to clean)

I have 1 cage and just ordered the 2nd.

I bought a smaller one with divider but am sorry I didn't consider it better because it is a breeder cage, not a flight cage.
Squeaky is alone in that one, she sits Much more than she ever did in any other cage rather than fly around like she used to. It is longer and wider but at 18" inside it is 4" shorter and she's not liking it. I lowered her perches and food to give her more headroom feel and she has started to fly a little at least.

Below are the pics of the 2 large flight cages.

The one already have and set up is the platinum one.
Waiting for the white one. I think the pic is eggshell color. Will see when it arrives.