Zebras and societies

[Makufye]

I had two male zebras when I joined the forum earlier this year. Unfortunately, one was older (we aren't sure how old -- I was initially told it was a baby, but later the previous owner realized she had mixed two up) and I found him dead today. He was more quiet recently, but he had been eating and drinking and doing finch things. There was no trauma, and after I took the nest out MUCH earlier in 2016, the two males got a long just fine. I never saw any aggression.

So now I have just one male zebra. I do not want to deal with babies. I have only ever had male birds (budgie, tiel) so adding a female makes me nervous. The woman who gave me the bird now is recommending two female societies. Will this be ok? She had them all together in a large cage and the societies just gave the zebras a wide berth.

I just don't want my remaining bird to pine away.

Thoughts?

[Sheather]

Your bird will probably do fine with two society females. They will likely accept him as a companion and keep him good company, but beware: without other options, they will probably mate and actually are capable of producing young together albeit most eggs laid will not hatch.

[lnlovesorange]

Sheather nailed what I was going to say. I've seen hybrid Zebra/Societies, so it is possible. But they can/do get a long great.

[Sojourner]

I'm not sure why you don't just get another male Zeb?

Zebras aren't nearly as peaceful as societies. But really its not so much the mixing of species as the number. An odd number is never a good thing in the finchly cage.

I think the cage dynamics will be easier if you just get one more male zebra finch.

If you want the female societies, there will be eggs. They don't have to breed to end up with eggs. I had 2 females in the cage and had eggs - they actually nested before giving up and apparently eating the eggs. At least I ASSUME they ate them as there were no signs of any eggs or residual shells and yolk. But they were sure weirded out at the time, and I couldn't find much nesting material residue either. Maybe aliens got 'em. Anyway.

Then the one laying got egg-bound and she was gone literally before I could type it in.

Regardless, 3 finches is not a good number. Two is good and 4 is good - any even number because the odd man out will be unhappy.

So I looked into this a little more because according to my memory its not that hard to end up with society-zebra hybrids, and sure enough - not that hard.

The seller (won't call her a breeder since no good breeder would do this on purpose) in this post apparently had no fewer than 14 such hybrids.

http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2037

Not only that, but according to one poster in that thread, the worst situation is to have the male Zebra and female Society - most likely to successfully cross breed. I've seen this said before. It's certainly true for horses that a horse-donkey hybrid comes out differently depending on whether the horse or the donkey is the female in that pairing. Which, btw, as is true for these bird hybrids, are not always sterile as people think.

Perhaps you might want to reconsider mixing species if you don't want babies and you don't want eggs. The eggs are, in fact, more likely to be viable than not. Even if there was 50% mortality in the egg - and I've seen nothing to suggest it would be that high - that's still 3 or 4 surviving chicks.

[Sojourner]

More info on hybrids:

Zebras and societies will readily hybridize

http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29624

Many hybrids created from the same Genus (e.g, Erythrura, Amandava, Uraeginthus, etc) will very likely be fertile because they are quite closely related.

http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22926

I don't think zebras and societies are the same genus and so the offspring are more likely - but not guaranteed - to be sterile.

[Sheather]

Don't overthink it. I've only ever had one zebra out of dozens that was not amicable with other finches - and it was other zebras too, not just societies. Otherwise I find the temperaments very similar.

Two societies and a zebra will be fine. The zebra will bond with both hens and the societies will remain bonded as well. Societies naturally form mated trios of one male to two females or the reverse in flock settings, I've seen it many times. The picture below is of a former couple I had - male zebra, female society. The female society was also bonded to a male society. The trio didn't fight in any way and the zebra was very affectionate with his shared girlfriend.



The matings are usually infertile. My pair only produced clear eggs. Another pair I know of had two chicks in six years, so a fertility rate of about 5% given how often their owner let them nest. Regardless, birds don't have babies without a nest basket, period.

[Sojourner]

Sheather

Your experience is VERY different from mine (as far as the difference in disposition between zebras and societies), and that of many other people. That's all I'll say about that.

But one thing I absolutely cannot agree on is the idea that 3 finches in a cage is ok.

It just isn't. There will always be exceptions to the rule - but the rule is that finches are happiest in pairs. You don't count on exceptions to the rule.

And someone who does not want babies is not going to be well served by setting up a harem situation regardless of whether or not the male actually will bond with two females. That just doubles the chances of mating and ending up with hybrid chicks.

My mother raised finches - zebras, societies, javas, and I forget what else. We must have had 40 to 60 finches. I have NEVER seen 3 finches bond, in any group or any species. I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that it wouldn't happen in an artificial situation like this where 3 birds are stuck together in a cage and have no option of creating actual pairs. But given the OPs stated preferences, going this way will not meet their preference to avoid breeding and egg-laying.

As far as alleging that no nests means 0 chance of breeding - I know for a fact that my guys have nothing in the cage even remotely resembling a nest - not even a seed cup remotely big enough to lay an egg in - and yet they keep trying to build a nest in the bottom, in a corner of the cage, and she keeps laying. Not having a nest doesn't stop successful mating and egg-laying - it just makes it easier to find and toss the eggs.

What you have then is all the problems of breeding (egg-laying, nest building, mating behavior, and possible increases in aggression depending on who else is in the cage) with none of the benefits (baby birds).

Although if you REALLY REALLY don't want baby birds, maybe that is a problem as well.

The point being that the only way to avoid all that is to stick with another male Zebra, or 3 more male zebras if more than one pair of birds is wanted and you want to avoid babies and eggs and all the problems that go along with that.

[Sheather]

Sheather

Your experience is VERY different from mine (as far as the difference in disposition between zebras and societies), and that of many other people. That's all I'll say about that.

But one thing I absolutely cannot agree on is the idea that 3 finches in a cage is ok.

It just isn't. There will always be exceptions to the rule - but the rule is that finches are happiest in pairs. You don't count on exceptions to the rule.

...

My mother raised finches - zebras, societies, javas, and I forget what else. We must have had 40 to 60 finches. I have NEVER seen 3 finches bond, in any group or any species. I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that it wouldn't happen in an artificial situation like this where 3 birds are stuck together in a cage and have no option of creating actual pairs. But given the OPs stated preferences, going this way will not meet their preference to avoid breeding and egg-laying.

As far as alleging that no nests means 0 chance of breeding - I know for a fact that my guys have nothing in the cage even remotely resembling a nest - not even a seed cup remotely big enough to lay an egg in - and yet they keep trying to build a nest in the bottom, in a corner of the cage, and she keeps laying. Not having a nest doesn't stop successful mating and egg-laying - it just makes it easier to find and toss the eggs.

Societies and zebras aren't totally alike, mainly zebras are more protective of their nests, but again, I've had 18 nice zebras and one naughty one. The majority never behaved aggressively to another bird except to protect their nests when they had very young chicks.

I've had about 60 finches over the years too, between breeding and fostering rescues... and honestly... never seen real issues with a trio even in a cage. Two birds may pair up and leave a loner but I've never seen vicious aggression and usually the loner still gets preened by the pair. Even with zebras. The worst case was when I had three silverbills - one did get ignored but never harassed. Societies love everyone and I think could be kept happy in any number.

My trios were in a free flight aviary set up, not caged, with plentiful mate choices. The first trio I saw formed between two sisters who both bonded to one male - they apparently didn't like the others were were unwed at the time. The second instance was a male/female couple who later accepted an additional male into their relationship. The third was three brothers, the fourth was a quartet - one male society bonded equally with two society hens, while one of those hens also paired with a zebra. Though the additional society hen or the male never showed affection to the zebra, all four slept together in one nest, but the male society didn't allow any bird outside this group into his nest.

And your birds clearly aren't alike mine, because I've never once had a finch lay an egg without a nest. They don't even mate. Now cockatiels on the other hand, I've yet to find a way to keep my pair from nesting if they decide it's time. But finches have been easy for me. Yours may just be more determined than mine.

But I digress; back on topic, simply going by my experience I'd not hesitate to put two societies with a single zebra.

[lovezebs]

Makufye

There are several choices available to you the way I see it.

You could get another male Zebra...

You could get a female Zebra...

You could get a Society male...

You could get a Society female (s) ...

Now let's look at these different scenerios.

-Another male Zebra:
There is a high chance that two unrelated males, introduced later in life will not get along very well. There will be chasing, squabling, and possibly down right fighting .

-A female Zebra:
Although there might be some initial chasing, the odds are that they will bond closely together down the road . Will they mate? Yes. Will she lay eggs? Possibly. However without a nest, the odds of babies hatching are very low. When you see an egg, just toss it, end of story.

-A male Society:
Your Zebra boy will initially chase the Society male, but eventually they will settle and co-exist more or less peacefully together and become friends.

-A Sociiety female(s):
Your male may or may not chase the Socie female(s) around.
Initially if there are two, the two Socie ladies will stick together, but eventually they'll include the male Zebra into their little group.
Will they mate? Hard to say, they may or may not. Will they lay eggs? Possibly, but females don't need a male for that. Will the eggs be viable? They might be, but I've never had it happen (even though I've been housing Zebras and Societies together in one flight for years).
If you don't supply a nest, the odds of these eggs ever hatching, are very close to zero.

So consider these choices, and see what appeals to you most.

Good luck.

[Makufye]

The friend who gave me the two zebras says she is happy to set me up however I like. She had the zebras with the societies before they came to me, because the adult zebras weren't caring for the babies, and the societies stepped in.

So it sounds like one society female is better than two, and the zebra will likely be ok with a society girl. She says she can show me how to manage the eggs if I don't want babies. (She says she has never had them breed, but she can help, regardless.)

She can also offer me two females and a male, which I think I have enough room for -- a 3 foot flight cage.

Thoughts? (I appreciate the help!!!)

[Makufye]

Sorry, I just saw the comments (somehow refreshing didn't allow them to show up right away.)

I'm going to talk to the woman. This is a former coworker who rescued the finches from someone who didn't know how to care for them, and she knew I had other birds (budgies and tiels, not together, of course!) She thought it would be a good idea, after the other boy died, for me to have at least one more bird. She feels pretty confident if I put in fake eggs that they won't breed -- hers have not.

It sounds like this is a bit like dogs (I used to breed), and you just have to know your lines and your dogs (or birds). This zeb grew up with these societies, so they aren't unknown. If it looks like it is going downhill, I can pull them quickly and call this friend -- she will take them back.

Thanks again!

[lovezebs]

Makufye

If these kids were previously housed together, I don't think you'll run into any major issues.

Societies, will generallly get along well with pretty much any species, as long as they are not getting relentlessly bullied. They like to snuggle and cuddle, and most Zebras enjoy that as well.

You are lucky to have a friend, who is willing to help you with setting your birds up, and answer your questions, etc. That's wonderful.

Good luck with your birdies, and let us know what you decide.

[Makufye]

I just wanted to follow up and thanks to everyone for their input.

I spoke to the woman who had all of the birds to start, and she said, "Let's work together to make this work for you." (She has turned out to be an awesome friend!)

So she brought me two societies and instructed me to rearrange the flight cage (I had another cage for the societies as well) and just stick em in there. Her flock hasn't changed since I got my zebra and I don't have birds coming in and out, so she felt this was the best way to get success without making me crazy.

So I followed her instructions, and I open the box and realize how BIG societies are next to my little zeeb. I thought, oh boy, I hope you are ok with this. Almost immediately, he started cuddling with them on the perches, and they were preening each other.

Day two, I came home, and the girls were pinned to the side of the cage, and he was quietly meeping as he jumped around. I was afraid that I would have to take them out, but then I realized he wasn't being aggressive. He was being a HORNDOG. I knew what aggressive meeping was from when I had a nest and two males. This wasn't it. So I got the ladies some meal worms, and I rearranged some greens so they could get away from him, and then all was ok.

Day three, they started flirting with him. Now everyone is friends. I do have fake eggs in case they get "ideas" but so far, it's been good. The best part is, one of the ladies is very hand friendly. She comes to the cage side to greet me, and she will take meal worms from my fingers. Her fearlessness is making everyone else calmer. Even my zeeb has calmed down and is less worried about what I'm doing in his cage. He also has started to express interest in new foods (they like my "cooking," which he never did before!)

I am really really glad I gave it a try, and I'm extra grateful for my friend who was willing to work with me. I do still have the extra cage, just in case. But I'm starting to see their individual personalities.

[lovezebs]

Makufye

Glad to hear that things are working out well for your trio.

Societies, have a way of calming things down, unless they're with some bird who is dead set on mayham and carnage.

You mention your 'cooking'. What are you cooking for them? Anything good?

I was surprised to hear that your Zebra boy is so much smaller than the Societies. My guys, are the same size, so much so in fact, that I sometimes mistake my white Societies for my white Zebras and vice-versa.

Below, a picture of a White Zebra female, and a Fawn pied Society, and below that , two white Societies with a normal female Zebra in the middle. As you can see, the sizes are pretty much identical.

[Sheather]

So glad to hear it's working out! Like I said, societies love everyone.