Some odd general questions

[OldGregg]

Hello! I have a few odd questions:

I am wondering where I can find a comparison between each species on behavior? Are there big differences generally between the Fringillidae and Estrildidae families?

I read somewhere that mule birds are controversial? Why?

I have read that society finches were produced by people. They have no wild counterparts. Has this influenced their care requirements?

Which finch species should be kept in large aviary vs a flight cage? Should ideally they all be kept in an aviary? Do some prefer a smaller space?

Should I provide UV lighting?

Lastly, is it ok to let finches fly around the room (assuming the room is bird safe?) Or is this practice frowned upon as a source of enrichment? (In this case, they would have to be tame I imagine).

Is there a general opinion on hand-raising finches? Is this seen as unethical? If a bird is hand raised, but still exposed to other finches to learn behavior, is that controversial?

If it is controversial to hand raise finches, wouldn't this hold true for other birds in the pet trade?

I hope this questions don't cause any problems. I realized in other communities the things I wonder about have been hot button issues.

Thank you everyone =)

[Icearstorm]

OldGregg

I'm not as experienced when it comes to different families and genera of birds, so I'll leave that to someone more experienced than me.

Mule birds and other hybrids are controversial because a bird that is used for producing mules is not having as many pure species offspring. This can become a major issue when done at a large scale, as the number of pure species being hybridized will be reduced. Take goldfinch X canary mules; they sing pretty well and are quite unique, but pure goldfinches are becoming harder to find in many parts of the pet trade. Most hybrids are sterile, so pure species are necessary for the hybrids to continue being produced.

Fertile hybrids may be even more controversial, as they can "dirty" the bloodlines of pure species. Many people consider keeping species pure in captivity to be important for conservation, should the populations in the wild become threatened. This is also part of the reason why certain aviculturists breed wild-type birds with no mutations or mutation splits that aren't found in the wild.

Ideally, all birds should be kept in aviaries, as birds would be able to fly wherever they want in the wild. However, this simply isn't practical for most people due to cost and the potential of uncontrolled breeding, which could result in inbreeding.

UV is generally considered important for birds, although it seems that they can get enough D3 from food and supplements. UV may result in a 50/50 sex ratio of offspring, as for whatever reason, many finches seem to have more male offspring when bred without much UV light. Finches can also see some UV light, so it could influence their behavior.

Letting your birds fly around in a bird-safe room is fine, although they might be nervous at first. With time, they should calm down and learn to go back to their cage.

Hand-feeding pet finches is controversial mostly because many people mess up and end up asphyxiating the babies while feeding them. Parent-fed birds also get a bit of their parents' bacteria, so that could help them establish a healthy microbiome. Wild finches shouldn't be hand-fed by most people because they may become partially imprinted on humans, making them less nervous Han they should be. This generally isn't an issue with pet finches, though they still should not be raised in isolation due to the possibility of becoming fully-imprinted on people and not interacting or breeding with their own kind. If you desire a tame bird and don't want breeding, then a fully-imprinted bird is acceptable, but a bird raised by you with others of its kind should work just as well (which still isn't exactly well, since many finches lose tameness when around other non-tame finches).

[OldGregg]

Thank you so much! This is super helpful! I am saving all this info.

[paul-inAZ]

As to species and their differences here is a page that is a start to sorting some of these things out.
It used to be a sidebar menu item on this site but for some reason has been removed.
http://www.finchinfo.com/birds/finches/ ... /index.php

[Sheather]

Fringillid finches don't cuddle or preen each other as a rule - almost all estrildids except Gouldians do. Beyond that, it's hard to broadly differentiate them behaviorally. Some of them need specialist diets including a higher oil content than estrildids, like the goldfinch. All estrildids require a similar base diet of different millets. Within estrildids, waxbills also require or at least appreciate some insect food in their diet and may not breed without it. Most of the other finches of both groups seen in the pet trade are pretty strict vegetarians, though some may eat insects if they're provided they do not need them to rear young.

Society finches do have a wild ancestor, sources that claim they're hybrids made by man are perpetuating a myth since disproven by genetic study. They are the domesticated form of the white-rumped Munia (Lonchura striata) and were domesticated in China. They have been cage-bred for centuries in some of the tiniest enclosures and selectively bred for tameness and high reproductive drive. They are not afraid of people as a rule and will breed under any conditions. Though normally still hand-shy they are among the calmest of caged finches by nature - only some canaries may rival them - and they can be finger-tamed with patience.

I let my birds out every day. They don't have to be tame though some of mine are. They will consider their cages their homes and return willingly after a while.

[OldGregg]

Sheather Thank you so much! I had no idea about the history with society finches. That makes me lean more towards them. I love the owl finches too but if the society is the tamest I might go for them. Or maybe an owl and a society.

[Fernando]

Finches are social birds. They show their natural behaviour when together with other of their species. They too change behaviour depending on space. An aviary will meet the needs of all, and is a necessity for most if you want healthy birds.
Though I had zebra finches in a small cage as a boy - the first male came hopping in the living room and stayed - with the knowledge I have now, I wouldn't do that again.
There is no need to hand raise birds. Hand raising should be the ultima ratio. If you want to handle animals, stroke them and play with them, you shouldn't get birds. If ethics are important to you.

I don't know where you live and what the legal regulations in your area are, but over here it is not easy at all to get 'rare' birds - 'rare' in pet trade that is - and therefore it is of utmost importance to locally breed healthy, not consanguineous birds - pure species. The 'gene pool' of captive birds is rather reduced so every mule, every hybrid that is fertile is a real danger for the surviving of a given species in captivity. I'm not sure, but I think that in the next future the european countries will stop any import of birds from outside as has already done Australia some time ago. In this sense, breeding is 'protecting'. 'Protecting' pure species for the regional pet trade of captive birds. Protecting birds in-situ needs the stop of exporting birds taken from the wild - like many singing finches.

But I never forget that birds are essentially wild animals, that, if kept at all, should be kept under the best conditions possible - the best from the point of view of the birds - not the owner. Free flight in a human's room is a compromise that is convenient for the human to enjoy the birds, not vice versa.

[OldGregg]

Fernando Sadly where I live, I have found some places importing wild birds. They get away with it because none-native species are not protected. I hope that someday the USA will become more like Australia and ban these types of practices.

I am thinking for an indoor cage, ideally something 2.5 meters long. I won't be able to think about actually getting birds until I feel I have read enough which will probably take at least a year.

I have been trying to find large flight cages but there seem to be very few so I might need to build one myself (if I end up deciding to get finches).

I am not really looking for a cuddly bird, but would like if they were not afraid of me or would sometimes hang out on my shoulder or just use me as a stop between flight locations. I raised wild orphan finches for release. They seemed to see me as a provider of food but they were around their own kind and not interested in humans generally. They didn't cuddle with me, they just asked for the occasional snack or landed on my head before flying off. Once they were released they didn't come back to me anymore (except once for a quick snack). I liked that level of interaction. But, as I am learning, these may not be the right bird for that.

[Sheather]

If you would like tame birds, look for very young Java sparrows, they are easily hand-trained.

[OldGregg]

Sheather Thank you! I will def. look into these guys then.

[Fernando]

OldGregg

Building an aviary oneself is a lot of fun and it is not so difficult at all. In the end you have the biggest possible space, just like you want it to look, after you have improved your skills in working with wood/metal/whatsoever - at least I did! - and everybody goes ¡wow - where did you get this!

I'm just on the edge - in a few weeks I'll begin a big outdoor aviary with 2x1m modules.
Don't be afraid - it is not complicated at all!

[OldGregg]

Fernando that is so exciting! I hope you will post pictures I have only built a tortoise enclosure but I hope that someday my tortoise can walk around the aviary. It would be so fun to watch them fly around and talk to all the birds.

[Sheather]

I have two Javas that are finger-trained and will fly to me for a bit of millet, I trained them both as young adults and they took to me very quickly. I also have tame societies, one who steps up and lets me pet him, one who flies to my hand on command and one who will do a bit more hesitantly so if I'm holding some millet for her. The adult male was hatched in my house and handled, but his parents were wild so he didn't become tame for a few years. Gradually as I worked with him his mate copied, and the tamest one is their own baby, who hatched at a time where both parents had mostly lost any fear of me. He acts like a hand-fed bird and is totally tame. So you can tame finches, but it is a process.

I had a seasonal aviary. It didn't have a shelter, but I'd take my birds out for the day or sometimes in good weather they might stay out for a few days/weeks. It was 8 x 8 x 8 feet, and a good size for a small urban yard but if I could I'd love one at least twice the length one day. The birds really do love such a space and being able to be out in the sun.

[Sally]

OldGregg

You've gotten a lot of good answers already, I just wanted to add that I agree that Java and Society finches are the most likely to become tame.

Stay away from waxbills, many if not most in the USA are wild-caught, plus by nature, they are very flighty.

Hand feeding Javas or Societies can result in a tame bird. Hand-feeding waxbills rarely results in a tame bird, unless they are kept away from other birds. My hand-fed waxbill fledglings would fly to me to be fed, would cuddle around my neck, chew on my hair, but once they were weaned, they didn't want to have anything to do with me anymore.

[OldGregg]

Thank you everyone for all the informative answers it sounds like I will be reading as much as I can about javas and societies. I am so excited!