Listerine and/or Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV)?

[debbie276]

There was a lawsuit against poland spring and it was shown that their "spring" water was actually well water. I believe they took the water from 50 to 70 feet below the surface.

[DanteD716]

[CandoAviary]

Just buy a small counter top dishwasher. They work good.

Great idea... I wasn't even familiar with these thing
http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=c ... =HURE#x0y0

[kenny66]

Thanks Kenny, that's what I try to do is share information. I realized there are many ways of keeping birds... I personnally have used many, got rid of some, added some, went back to some..... I am always willing to learn more if it has to do with making birds happier and healthier in captivity.

As far as vinegar... I wasn't really going to drink the bottle I use venegar or applesauce all the time when I hand feed finches to keep the PH unfavorable to yeast... but I refrain from giving it on a daily bases. I think my birds have a pretty good balanced PH and usually don't have a problem with yeast..unless I am handfeeding and then that is never as good as what the chick's parents eat and feed, along with their antibodies.
However there are some studies that prove vinegar deters appetite, hence resulting in the birds weight lose from not consuming thier proper diets.
Below are just a few of the many scientific studies around the globe on vinegar... found to supress appetite, help blood sugar levels that may bennifit diabetes..and so much more. here are just a few...
http://www.livestrong.com/article/39661 ... ar-weight/

Apple cider vinegar helps you feel full longer because it reduces your body's glycemic response to foods.
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com/apple- ... -loss.html

http://www.livestrong.com/article/28140 ... ight-loss/

http://www.knowabouthealth.com/miraculo ... egar/2004/

http://www.webmd.com/diet/apple-cider-vinegar?page=2

I would like to point out that nobody is being rude hear, just expressing opinions based on experience and studies. I do agree that this post should be split with a new topic titled Natural remedies and Health ... under health or resources? so that others can read this great information. Liz, Janine maybe could do this???
I think we all bennifit and learn when we have such knowledagble people...like Kenny, Dean, and others that I just don't see any more here, expressing their many years of trials, errors, and obsrvation.... I know I have learned much from both of them and hope that the forum members can continue to attract and keep such knowledgible info comming. There is plenty of space for chatting and appeasing already on this forum... let's get some real experts involved. There is room for all.

These sites mention the benfits as suppositions. In fact the webMD site actually says that there is no definitive medical evidence so far that conclusively demonstates weight loss properties. This is precisely what I was referring to. Anyway I respect all of the other views.

I appreciate the information you have provided, I read it with much interest. So many different management practices, all legitimate and true for those that use them

[CandoAviary]

True Kenny, You can find different studies on anything...especially in the world of information at our finger tips. Sometimes very contridicting views at that. ..as a peon I sometimes get lost in the mumble, jumble of scientific rhetoric. I had never studied vinegar before.. I had just blindly used it to help with handfeds that developed yeast infections... much like I would use a vinegar douche in my vagina to discourage a yeast infection... though you must look deeper into the bodies functions, diets, chemistry to find why the yeast is not kept in a natural balance in the first place. I had actually never made the connection to weight lose, as I stated... that's why I started to google and read and learn... found literally hundreds of post of studies conducted on the vinegar and it's connection to appetite suppression. Just thought I would share some of what I found on the first pages of the search. I didn't find anything about vinegar/pectin not being an appetite suppressant. If you could give me some sites/studies to read I would love to read those too. Going to try to find it in the webMD, thanks. I like to have all view points, it goes along with my inquiring nature. For me personally I just don't see the need in using vinegar on my birds unless I have a PH problem that needs acidfying... like in the case of yeast. Fortunatly my birds rarely suffer from this.

[CandoAviary]

Okay, more findings. I read the mouse study you referred to in the webMD journal...I continued reading many of their other information and found that they to have contridictory post...so you have to remain open minded and gather you resources carefully and not rely on one quoted study, but many, especially when many studies quote the opposite findings. Here is another of several pages of the webMD that recommended Pears and Apples as appetite suppressants due to the PECTIN that they contain. Of course ACV (apple cider vinegar) contains these very pectins....hmmm.... maybe I will go drink a bottle
http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/15-f ... ose?page=2

Also read a page where they stated that they did not know if Apple cider vinegar was safe for human consumption??? What??
And they claim that dandelion does cause weight loss..mostly from increased urination (water weight) also says dandlion can be bad for your health news to me Most birders highly recommend dandelion greens as one of the best. I have never had ill effects feeding or eating myself these greens I don't believe everything I read in this webMD
http://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/tc/popula ... c-overview

[debbie276]

Ill take an apple over vinegar any day! I can't imagine drinking vinegar regularily and not burning my throat. I wonder how much petin is left in the cider that turns to vinegar anyway . I have to post a picture of a bucket of raw vinegar for you to see the gross stuff growing in there. Ill check my batch when I get home.

[CandoAviary]

Ill take an apple over vinegar any day! I can't imagine drinking vinegar regularily and not burning my throat.

Disclaimer...I am not going to drink a bottle of vinegar...it is a fat joke I am having with myself I crack myself up

Apples turned into vinegar retain the pectin and lots of other stuff. Vinegar/wines can be made out of many fruits. sidenote..Homade plum wine is some of the best tasting stuff I have ever had Here is a site that has the ingredient contents of ACV...check out the nutritional benefits and health benefits this site claims...makes it sound like the miracle cure. It is further down the page listed as apple cider vinegar
http://www.innvista.com/health/foods/fr ... pcider.htm

[debbie276]

Attached are links to raw apples and apple cider vinegar and their nutrition. Notice the vinegar has lost all the vitamins and omega's that it started with.
Interesting
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fru ... ces/1809/2
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/spi ... erbs/217/2

[CandoAviary]

Wow...I never thought I would learn so much about vinegar. I may become a vinegar "expert"
Debbie, the site that you posted didn't provide a breakdown of the fibers for which pectin would fall under. They just list total fiber. I do feed way more fresh apple than I ever would ACVinegar. This way the birds will benefit from all those vitamins that are lost through processing/fermenting.
Also I noticed that they had 0% for alcohol though most vinegars do have some alcohol retained after most turns to acedic acid. But this alcohol is in such a low amount, plus then diluted with water further (like listerine) that it would pose no threat to our finches.
The soldier's wine that was given to them would go rancid in the field and they refered to it as "Vino" where we get our term vinegar I still refer to cheap wine as Vino
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_apple_ci ... ohol_in_it

[cindy]

here is a breakdown on apples raw

http://www.anyvitamins.com/nutrition-apples.htm

Scroll to the end for addition info

[cindy]

Some interesting history and facts on AVC
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _20152545/

Mother of vinegar....nibbling on the goo for parasite prevention????

[CandoAviary]

here is a breakdown on apples raw

http://www.anyvitamins.com/nutrition-apples.htm

Scroll to the end for addition info

This breakdown also does not go into details of the fiber and pectin. Some pectin info
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-pectin.htm

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/pectin.aspx#2

Pectin when added to water thinkens and can give you the sense of filling full. Also will thicken fruits to make jams and jellies

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SW305/It ... de=INTL407

[The canary man]

Gonna have to agree here with Donna
On with the discussion of ACV and Listerine.
After all, we are all here to learn not to sling mud.
I honestly didn't see anything insulting in any of the posts, just a possible language barrier, that all are going to have to learn to step over if we want to keep this forum international.
It is always wonderful to learn what worked for others, and then make our own decisions.
Hopefully Dean will continue to honour us with his experiences, after all life is about learning.

Hello, Janine and every one in this room.
1) I would like to thank you for your understanding, complement, care and attention regarding me continue joining this beneficial forum. Well, i am still here my friend but it happened to be busy with last Sunday 3/18/2012 Bird show .
2) I would like to apologize for my delay by thanking you and the other members who have understood realistically my comment that caused me to be accused by some members as been (Rude).
3) I have been welcomed first by a lot of members before they even agree or disagree with my first post regarding Listerine so thanks for all of them.
4) Since i am not a new member any more i hope that we will welcome a new coming member with a few nice words before we attack his first post hopping to make him feel more comfortable, and not to give him/her a thought that we are just starving to show off our knowledge and experience .
5) Strictly, i believe that i must have practiced, tested, and experienced some item on my birds before i judge it negatively or positively and i must show the reader the result that it was not based on just opinion or just to show off that i know. Then its up to him/her to follow up with it or not .
6) Opinions & advice,s with no base can cause a bird keeper a big lost, even thought some advice,s and opinions can be beneficial.
7) I wish if we can use a new style of communication in this forum which is :
Asking the person why he/she prefer to use some item such as (ACV)
(Listerine)(Dettol) etc....., and what is the physical evidence that was based on using it .
Is not this way better than the (agree or disagree) way to start our communication with before we even allow explanation ?


Thank you my friends .
Dean K

[kenny66]

informed debate is what it is all about, not personal inferences. I really liked most of the posts and the effort people put into them. Thank you Cindy and Dante for your particular contribution. Although the style of some comments was challenging, it made me review some of my husbandry practices. As I mentioned before, every one is on the same level in this hobby, including new owners/breeders. Those new finch owners, hungry for knowledge and enthusiastic, inspire me. It makes me remember when I started out many years ago. On the recommended communications protocol, I was MD of the Australian arm of a large international communications company for over a decade. One thing I did learn is that most people are very different in how they communicate to one another. Therefore it is rather impractical to suggest a script on how to respond to other posts. For me,I would like to focus on helping and being helped by people with no predetermined or set in concrete view, particularly those new to finch keeping. Unfortunately I am not now enjoying this thread.