Genetically (In)possible?

[Dayna]

Ok so I heard something today that I thought genetically was not possible or just did not happen. Maybe I am wrong, anyway here it is: When you have a SFY (single factor yellow) male gouldian I always believed that it was the breast color that determined whether or not the back color would appear more yellow or more green. Today I heard from a breeder that they have a orange or red head, white breast, dilute green back. What??? Is that even possible?

[nixity]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.
The color of the back for a SF Pastel Green (aka SF Yellow) is dependent on the breast color in terms of whether they appear more yellow (white or lilac breast) or more "dilute" (purple breast).

The variation in the color of a "dilute" (PB SF Pastel Green) from Lemon-Lime to Lime-Green doesn't have anything to do with their head color. It can also vary with each molt - it's simply a matter of how much melanin in the body feathers is suppressed by the single pastel gene present.
In some birds it's greatly suppressed.. in others, not as much.

Here are three different Dilutes - all Red Head:







Here is a RH WB SF Pastel Green:


Here is a RH LB SF Pastel Green:

[Dayna]

Sorry Tiffany I should have worded that better but you understood exactly what I was trying to say. A white or lilac breast single factor yellow would have a more lemon-lime back color and a purple breast would have a more lime green back color. Now saying that is there any possible way you can have a white breast that has a more lime green color than a lemon-lime color?

[finchman101]

Here in Australia we have a bird called the recessive dilute which means it can appear like a dilute with a purple breast but actually have a white breast.
Heres the link for some pictures if that's what you were thinking:
http://users.skynet.be/fa398872/engoulm21.htm

[Dayna]

Yes!!!!! That is exactly what I was wondering. So that proves right there that it is infact possible when I thought it wasn't. Thank you very much

[nixity]

It's possible but the Australian Dilute currently only exists in Australia unless I'm mistaken.
I think at one point they had something similar in Europe but as I understood it that line died out, so I think right now it is only present in Australia?

Otherwise what you would see in North America would be either PB and the American "Dilute" with a lemon-lime or lime-green coloration, or a WB or LB "SF Yellow" which most of the time is a canary yellow color but I have seem them appear a bit more like a lemon lime variant.
They are nowhere near as dark as the darker PB "Dilutes," though..

[ac12]

Now I am confused

How do I tell a SF yellow from a DF yellow, for both WB and PB?
I "thought" I had DF yellows, but now I'm wondering if one is a SF yellow (RH-WB-YB male). I don't see any green on his back, but I also don't know what to look for.

[dan78]

Correct me if I'm wrong,
but Ive been lead to believe that all dilutes are a SF where all pure yellow backs can be both. The way that I've been told to tell the difference between pure yellow SF to DF is that the SF has a blue ring around the mask which can be any colour mask, the DF has no blue ring around the mask instead has a white ring. Another way to tell that you have a single factor dilute is the black bib under the beak is now a grey colour. This is what I've been taught from a few gouldian breeders but when asking questions they can go in circles so if anything is wrong please correct it.

[nixity]

Correct me if I'm wrong,
but Ive been lead to believe that all dilutes are a SF where all pure yellow backs can be both.

Correct

The way that I've been told to tell the difference between pure yellow SF to DF is that the SF has a blue ring around the mask which can be any colour mask, the DF has no blue ring around the mask instead has a white ring. Another way to tell that you have a single factor dilute is the black bib under the beak is now a grey colour. This is what I've been taught from a few gouldian breeders but when asking questions they can go in circles so if anything is wrong please correct it.

Not necessarily... DF can still retain some degree of the blue ring and sometimes the bib is not always entirely white. It can vary depending on the bird. It is difficult even for me sometimes to distinguish because of how different it can be from one bird to the next.
These are usually good indicators, but you have to be able to really scrutinize sometimes.

This male is a perfect example. This is an OH PB DF Yellow/Blue - I have found that the PB DF yellows tend to be a little "dirtier" looking - not always, but often.


However, here are three other good examples of a DF that displays the almost pure white bib and ring:
This is a RH LB DF Yellow/Blue


This is a RH PB DF Yellow/Blue (brother to the bird above):


This is a BH LB DF Yellow/Blue (father of the OH PB DF above):


And here is a shot of that RH LB SF Yellow/Blue male showing off his bib - you can see the grey tones to it:

[Dayna]

From what I have gathered a SF and a dilute are one in the same but people use the different terms depending on if the bird shows more yellow or more green so as not to confuse people or is that incorrect?

Now I am confused

How do I tell a SF yellow from a DF yellow, for both WB and PB?
I "thought" I had DF yellows, but now I'm wondering if one is a SF yellow (RH-WB-YB male). I don't see any green on his back, but I also don't know what to look for.

I don't have any PB but you can see the difference with the pics that Tiffany posted. I will post 2 pics. One of my DF male and one of my deceased SF male. They are both WB but you can really see the difference with these two. They are easy to tell apart.

This is my DF. You can see around his mask that the line is grey/white

This is my SF. You can really see the blue around his mask.

[debbie276]

From what I have gathered a SF and a dilute are one in the same but people use the different terms depending on if the bird shows more yellow or more green so as not to confuse people or is that incorrect?

They are SF, "dilute" is a made up name and refers to PB males only.
A true dilute can only be found in Australia and has totally different gentics then what we call "dilute" here in America.

From the Finch Information Center's lady gouldian genetic page:
http://www.finchinfo.com/genetics/lady_ ... colors.php
Dilute is the phenomenon of combining a 'yellow' Z (sex-linked) chromosome with a 'green' Z (sex-linked) chromosome in a purple-breasted bird. (Obviously since two Z chromosomes are required for this to occur, dilute birds can only be cocks.) Hens can never be dilute. The single yellow body gene "battles" with the green body gene for expression, and so a little of each gene is expressed making the bird not green nor yellow but a shade in between. This is the hallmark of incomplete dominance. Dilute will never occur in a white breasted cock (since then the bird who is SFYB will appear yellow), but dilute birds can be split for white breasted. Because the yellow gene suppresses the expression of black coloration and because the green gene mutes the effects of the yellow gene, any normally black area on the bird will appear grey (as opposed to white), so black headed birds will have grey heads.

[Dayna]

They are SF, "dilute" is a made up name and refers to PB males only.
A true dilute can only be found in Australia and has totally different gentics then what we call "dilute" here in America.

Ok that is what I thought (referring to the American version)

From the Finch Information Center's lady gouldian genetic page:
http://www.finchinfo.com/genetics/lady_ ... colors.php
Dilute is the phenomenon of combining a 'yellow' Z (sex-linked) chromosome with a 'green' Z (sex-linked) chromosome in a purple-breasted bird. (Obviously since two Z chromosomes are required for this to occur, dilute birds can only be cocks.) Hens can never be dilute. The single yellow body gene "battles" with the green body gene for expression, and so a little of each gene is expressed making the bird not green nor yellow but a shade in between. This is the hallmark of incomplete dominance. Dilute will never occur in a white breasted cock (since then the bird who is SFYB will appear yellow), but dilute birds can be split for white breasted. Because the yellow gene suppresses the expression of black coloration and because the green gene mutes the effects of the yellow gene, any normally black area on the bird will appear grey (as opposed to white), so black headed birds will have grey heads.

Thank you for the description. Nice to know

[ac12]

Thank you everybody.
I looked at my YB males, and I think they are all DF.

That takes one variable out of breeding.