Finch post-mortems for scaredy cat beginners - guidance pls

[Stephanie]

Every time a I lose a bird for no discernable reason I wish I had the guts...to check its guts .

For the first time ever I've had a spate of unexplained losses of Gouldian and Parrotfinch chicks age 1 to 12 weeks old, plus one stunning adult Gouldian in fine feather. Today's 3 month old Forbes (my first and only) is the last straw.

I have a good microscope. I have a scalpel. I just lack the knowledge/technique and the stomach. I'm hoping that someone here can please guide me knowledge/technique-wise for doing a basic post-mortem, while I work on the stomach part. I am quite medically au fait in a broad sense, so should be OK to do this with the right instruction.

Is there a good beginner's guide somewhere?

Thanks

[nelloyello11]

I can't advise you on technique on finches specifically, BUT, having been a bio major in college... As far as the stomach part- you have to kind of dissociate yourself from them being your beloved finches. Remind yourself that you are doing it for the love of them, in an effort help them, in the long run. One of the main reasons I really enjoyed thedissection segments of lab courses (despite the fact that I love living animals), is that it was REALLY fascinating. I often found myself dissecting systems and parts beyond what we were focusing on, out of sheer curiosity, because I wanted to know, to see, how it all fit together. So, my suggestion, when you get up the stomach to do it, go beyond what you think is necessary, and take the time to look at everything you can. Hopefully, you won't have many opportunities to do it, so you might as well learn as much as you can, when you do.

[lovezebs]

Stephanie

Sorry, can't help you girl. I love all my pets like family, feathered, furry or scaled... I couldn't bring myself to slice them apart just for the sake of curiosity.
But then again, to each his own.

[nelloyello11]

In this case, I think it's more than mere curiosity; it's about trying to save her flock.

I forgot to mention, if you have a college near you, you may be able to purchase a basic dissection kit (scalpel, tweezers, probe, etc) from whatever book store they use. I think ours were less than $20 way back when. We always did our dissections in dissection pans (sort of like a cake pan with a thick layer of wax), and used pins (long quilting pins would work well), to hold things out of the way.
You might try looking up dissection videos on YouTube to get some techniques, once you get feedback on what to look for/at.

[Angela&Shalamar]

Your better off finding a vet to do it or maybe check with whatever the australian equivilent to the department of Agriculture would be. Also check with any local bird rescues that may be around that should be able to help you find someone. It is possible you might see something on a gross necropsy (gross as in what you can see with your naked eye) but that may or may not tell you what happened. Even with a microscope however you may not see much. You would need to know what and where to swab and you may also need the ability to culture in order to find out what happened. The procedure would be the same as in any species. Lay the animal flat on it's back and secure it in place wings outstreched. You'd have to open it from throat to abdomen and fold back the skin and secure it. Then you'd have to examine each organ including the heart lungs etc and you would have to know what you were looking at and what it SHOULD look like and even then if you see something that doesn't look right you still won't know for sure WHY it doesn't look right. Frankly even with lab experience and having an animal science degree I wouldn't bother trying to do this myself. Are these birds indoor or out, has there been any unusual weather lately, have you changed food sources, cleaners or added any new birds. have you had any human visitors to your birds and if so where do they live or where did they come from. Also you could try contacting a local zoo or sanctuary they may know of someone that can help.

[MiaCarter]

I wish I could help, but I struggle to cut open eggs that didn't hatch.
I could easily perform a post-mortem on *your* finch, but I couldn't bring myself to dissect one of my babies (for that very reason. I view them as my little feathered kids and I couldn't detach myself mentally.) I wish I could, as it would provide some useful knowledge for those sudden deaths, so you could prevent similar cases in the future.

I imagine the main problem for a beginner would be knowing what's normal and what's abnormal. I did some googling and found lots of bird anatomy charts to help with the basics, but no microscopic slides with tissue samples showing what's normal/abnormal.
There may be some obvious abnormalities like inflammation or infection, an egg that didn't pass, etc. But some of the more subtle things and microscopic views, I wouldn't know what to look for exactly.

So I imagine it will require a lot of photos and a few dissections before you can really get a maximum benefit from this.

But if you're compelled, I'd take lots of photos -- in situ and as you perform the dissection. If you can capture photos of the microscope slides, I imagine that would be ideal. Good for analysis/comparison later on too, I bet.

Why are you interested in the stomach in particular?
I'd imagine it would be of limited help, no? Only because lots of birds (and animals in general) tend to stop eating before they die.

You might contact your avian veterinarian. Most vets do offer post-mortems. It would depend upon the individual, but I'm sure many vets would allow you to sit in and watch/ask questions (especially if it's your bird and you're the one paying for the post-mortem).

I might also try contacting a local veterinary university and speak with a prof in avian medicine. They may have some nice photos of microscopic slides or they could recommend a text?

[Sally]

I admire you for wanting to do this, though even necropsies by avian vets don't result in answers all the time. I couldn't do it, not because they are my pets, but because I simply don't have the stomach for it. I gave up my dream of being a nurse when I couldn't dissect a frog in 9th grade biology without getting sick!

I can't help you with the dissection, but I notice you have a microscope. Here is a link to doing fecal smears with a microscope. This is not what you need right now, but at the bottom of the article is a link to a yahoo group about avian microscopy which you might find very interesting.

http://www.finchaviary.com/Maintenance/FecalSmear.htm

[finchmix22]

Here is a link about losing fledglings.
http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/features_giardia.php
BTW I had two puppies several years ago that were diagnosed with giardia and they took medicine for a while. The vet told me city water supplies often have giardia and I need to buy water or get a good filter to prevent a recurrence. So, ever since, we all drink filtered or bottled water, including the pets.

[JackoftheGreen]

Sally, excellent link! I already have the bird poop, now all I need is a microscope... (-;

It occurs to me that doing a few fecal smears would be a way to 'ease into' the sort of detached medical mindset necessary to perform a full-on postmortem. Also, not to sound morbid, but I think it would nurture a sense of curiosity that, fully bloomed, could assist you through a postmortem later.

I'll second the suggestion to sit in with your avian vet for a couple procedures, that sounds like about the best place to start on this endeavor.

[Stephanie]

Thanks everyone.

I have already crossed the pooposcopy hurdle. All OK with that.

Necroscopy-wise you've got me thinking about how much I need to learn first about what's normal, to have a comparison for what's not. I'm not sure how to do that though, because dead birds will always be in some way abnormal, otherwise they wouldn't be dead .

I was thinking that internal smears might be worthwhile??? Would these offer more diagnostic data than poop samples? That is, gain access the right parts of the body, take smears and look at those under the microscope. Is this something that would/could/should be done?

[MiaCarter]

Hi Stephanie

Indeed, I imagine you'd want to make smears from internal samples.

Also, I know they take actual tissue samples and examine those.

You know what I might do?
I might see if you can get a couple "practice" birds that aren't yours, so you could learn to dissect them without the emotional component.

Of course, it's a matter of where to get the birds. I have a couple friends who are breeders, so logic dictates they see more deaths than I would. So if it was me, I'd ask them.

Another option that would allow for comparison would be to put them on ice until you have at least 2.
I don't care how creepy it makes me sound. LOL I'll admit I have a finch in my freezer, along with some babies and eggs. Digging holes is hard work! So I usually wait until I have two before I bury them.

So you could do that and defrost and evaluate. Only problem with that is I don't know what the freezing would do on a microscopic level. But then again, humans are kept on ice before autopsies, so it mustn't be too bad.

[MariusStegmann]

I think that what you are doing is like finding a needle in a haystack. Good luck to you, I hope you find something. I once lost all my Koi fish when I changed 50% of the water. I basically knew that they died because the municipality put too much chlorine in the water. If it is something that, how would you find the cause? Could you ask fellow bird-keepers in your area if they also had mortalities?

[mayble]

BTW I had two puppies several years ago that were diagnosed with giardia and they took medicine for a while. The vet told me city water supplies often have giardia and I need to buy water or get a good filter to prevent a recurrence. So, ever since, we all drink filtered or bottled water, including the pets.

I have a dog that picked it up from eating rabbit poop in the back yard.