Egg Binding??

[Olympic_Aiairies]

I came home today to find my beautiful continental CFW fawn hen dead. Hubby said he checked all the birds this morning and gave them millet and she was fine. 4 hrs later she was gone. I found her on the bottom of the cage still slightly warm. It looked like she was egg bound. I could kinda see what looked like part of the egg. Hubby felt awful but I'm not sure I could have done anything even if I'd found her in time. It looks like she went so fast. Does it sounds like egg binding? This is the first hen I've lost to it. I checked the nest and there were two eggs. They were quiet large for zebra eggs. I don't think I've seen them this big before so it would make sense if she ended up egg bound.

Also wanted to know if there is a blaring issue with their diet or if this was a fluke. All my Zebras are fed the same diet. They have free access at all time to finch seed mix, a honey stick treat, millet, cuttle bone, crushed egg shell, and a mixture of grit, charcoal, and oyster shells that I make myself. Every two days or so I give them mashed egg (sometime with powdered vitamins mixed in sometimes without), if they have chicks they get the egg everyday, and greens (romaine lettuce or sometimes cabbage, rarely spinach and only in small amounts if I do). Anything I'm missing? or any advice?

Thanks
Heidi

[Sally]

So sorry you lost your hen, but it does sound like it could have been egg binding. They can go very quickly. If caught in time, you can give them a drop or two of liquid calcium directly to the beak, set up a heat lamp next to their cage, and provide humidity by draping a wet (but wrung-out) towel over one end of the cage. I always recommend keeping liquid calcium on hand, as when you need it, you often don't have time to find it. Your diet sounds fine.

[MiaCarter]

Aw, I'm so sorry to hear this. That's heartbreaking.

I agreed with Sally.
I've seen this before and it progresses very quickly just like you described.

I think that diet sounds about right.
I also do Missing Link supplements sprinkled over the seed and fresh foods, along with multi-vitamin drops in the drinking water (but some don't like to do vitamins in the water; the type I use can also be put on food.)
I do vitamins daily just because not all of them eat all the fresh foods; a couple are a bit picky, so I feel like the vitamins help cover the bases for them.
But really, with several sources of calcium, she should have been okay.
The only possible problem I see is a possible low D3 intake, which is required to absorb calcium. It's found in eggs and sunlight. If she's not outside (most windows have UV filters) on a regular basis and was getting the eggs and vitamins every other day, then perhaps she just needed a bit more?
It's impossible to know, really.

But even with the best care and diet this can happen, especially if her eggs were of the x-large variety. I don't believe a lack of nutrients would cause her to have an x-large egg (in fact, I'd guess the opposite -- a smaller egg).
A lack of calcium manifests as a soft egg that they can't push out properly and a lack of D3 weakens muscles, meaning they can't push as hard. So it's this awful combo that can cause egg binding.

If you're familiar with the texture of a healthy egg, I'd examine the two remaining eggs to see if they're soft with thin shells. The difference will be noticeable if you compare a normal egg to an egg from a depleted hen. If you cut them in half with a knife, you can look at the thickness of the shells and compare your hen's egg to a healthy egg. Also, you can gently apply pressure to a half shell from the hen's egg and the healthy egg. The depleted eggs are "gummier" and paper thin.

Yeah. I've got a bit of time on my hands.

I'm interested in these things. The time it happened to my bird, she was fresh from the rescue, about a week out of a bad situation, and I was determined to figure out if there was some sort of visible indicator that I could evaluate. So I started analyzing eggs.
What can I say. I'm a geek. LOL

[Olympic_Aiairies]

Yeah I am familiar with the texture of a regular egg. Hers were normal but unusually large. She was a pet store bird that was in rough shape when I bought her. I gave her 6 months to recover and get her into breeding shape. I'm sad but she went so fast I couldn't do anything for her.
My birds are in front of a very large window so they get lots of sun from that and I give them vitamins every do often. They'll all be under full spectrum light soon though. Hubby is building me a bird room in the basement with room for my breeding cages and a large 3' by 6' flight for when they're resting.
I love my hubby.

[MiaCarter]

It's always awful when they go quickly and unexpectedly.
I too find it upsetting when I don't even have a chance to try to help.

That sounds like it will be a very nice little setup for your birds! That's something to look forward to for certain!

[Olympic_Aiairies]

Yeah I'm really sad about her she was beautiful and friendly. I've ordered some liquid calcium and will be picking up a heat lamp so I have them on hand. I was meaning to pick them up to have on hand but hadn't gotten to it yet. Haven't had a bird get ill before.

[MiaCarter]

If you ever need it in a pinch, you can actually get liquid calcium supplements at the drug store.
It's widely available as a kids' supplement.
I imagine they won't love the flavor, but in a life and death situation, it works.

[Olympic_Aiairies]

Oh Mia thanks for the tip!! I didn't know that. I think I know why she ended up binding though. The cock was still sitting on her eggs so I left them alone. Today I checked them to see if they were fertile and they weren't so I took them out. Below is a picture of her egg compared to those of on of my other finches. Her egg was huge!! No wonder she bound.

[MiaCarter]

Oh my heck!
That's tremendous!
Poor girly was trying to pass an ostrich egg.
What's curious is that in your photo, it doesn't look too much wider than the others, just taller/longer. You wouldn't *think* that would cause a problem as you'd think it would still fit through the canal, you know?
But maybe the egg she was trying to pass was wider.

That's disappointing that her eggs were infertile. To get a new life from the equation seems like it would have made her death a little less in vain, you know?
Plus, I would have been very curious to see what came out of that egg! It seems about 75% larger, so would the baby have been nearly twice the size of a normal?

Were all her eggs like this? Or was this clutch just a fluke?

FYI, your photo isn't showing in-thread for some reason, but I was able to copy the destination URL, so for anyone else who can't see it here in the thread:
https://m.facebook.com/olympicaviaries/ ... &source=48

[dutch]

Olympic_Aiairies.....sunlight through glass is no good
Birds need direct sunlight to produce vitamin d3.....vitamin d3 is needed for calcium absorbtion....without d3 calcium is useless

Also the uv lights wont give your birds enough d3

Soluvite d breeder is perfect for indoor birds that need d3

[MiaCarter]

She said she was getting a full spectrum light too, so that, combined with the vitamins, would definitely do the trick too in terms of D3. A high quality full spectrum light (Ott Bio Lites is a good one) is equal or better than being outdoors, while the bulb is at the early stages of its lifespan (the emissions fade over time.)
(Not to be confused with a UV or broad spectrum light. Broad spectrum is much weaker than full spectrum.)

Plus, virtually all calcium supplements like Calcium Plus now come with D3.

[dutch]

MiaCarter.....I have spoken to a few gouldian breeders who used full spectrum lights
All of them said the lights were no good for supplying the bird with d3

And most vitamin supplements on the market dont have enough d3 in them

I use soluvite d breeder...it was designed for breeders of indoor birds

[MiaCarter]

dutch -- Hmm... that's curious.
I read the same for the lower quality full spectrum lights and the broad spectrum lights -- that they don't supply nearly enough.
But the higher quality full spectrum lights on the market today were found to supply quite a bit more than natural light.

There's a study. Let me find it!

I did a ton of research into this as I was having problems with my guys in terms of breeding. (They weren't feeding the babies and I was wondering if they weren't getting enough full spectrum light to signal that it's daytime and time to feed more often.) They're in an internal room. Lots of natural light but no direct sunlight, so I did a ton of research into the D3 bit and the overall impact on breeding/behavior.
There are a few recent studies on this; one really good one where finches were among the birds studied. Let me track them down when I have a bit more time later today!

[MiaCarter]

dutch --- Do you (or anyone else) happen to know the daily recommended dosage for D3 for finches?

The liquid I have on hand has 60,000 IU per drop, which seems like quite a bit. (And that's put directly on food and in water).

For perspective, for a human, the MayoClinic.com recommends 1,000 IU/day for babies 12 mo and under and 2,000 IU for kids 1 year and older.
If the per-pound recommendation is the same for birds (it may or may not be), it would be just a few IU/day.
Or it could be that they need a much, much higher per-pound dosage.

[dutch]

MiaCarter.....60000 is low....my soluvite d breeder is double that

I give it to birds 5 days a week in their water for 8 hrs....then rest of the day plain water

Since using soluvite nests of 8 to 12 eggs fertile...40 nests..

Every chick perfect...parents breeding 5 clutches back to back

Not a single loss in 6 months

Before soluvite birds with only 4 to 6 eggs per clutch.....some nests all eggs infertile....and every chick died for 2 years


D3 produces fertile eggs...strong chicks...large clutches...