(Goulds) Suspected AirSac - Dilemma

[vellad]

Hi,

I have a pair of Goulds that just had 2 chicks hatch (yesterday and today) with probably another 2 to hatch.

Now yesterday I noticed the female 'sneezing' all the time and wiping her beak on the perch.

I suspect airsac. This would be my first ever experience with this parasite. She was never treated.

The male is not showing any such signs.

I have a solution that I mix with water for airsac mites. My dilemma is if I pull the hen out of the cage then i am concerned that the cock won't take care of the birds (although as of now he is being a very good father).

What should I do? Should i just treat the parents and allow the chicks to die?

(p.s. unfortunately i do not have SCATT or a way how to easily get it since i am in Europe)

(p.s. i don't have any fosters)

[debbie276]

If you are sure it's ASM you could just add it to the water and don't move the hen. If it is ASM the male should be treated also.

good luck

[vellad]

Hi Debbie

Wouldn't that kill the chicks since they will feed the chicks and the invertec (or whatever the name is) will end up in the chicks?

BTW I just realized that this started when I gave some tiny live mealworms .. But could just be a coincidence.

[debbie276]

The signs of air sac mites (open mouth breathing, clicking sounds, sneezing, tail-bobbing, etc.) are also consistent with many other respiratory ailments.
A diagnosis is made by wetting the feathers on the neck with alcohol and transilluminating the trachea with a bright penlight. This procedure is best performed in a darkened room. With normal vision, the mites can be seen as dark, pinhead size, moving spots in the trachea.

The chicks should be fine even getting the meds if ASM is what you have.

[vellad]

The signs of air sac mites (open mouth breathing, clicking sounds, sneezing, tail-bobbing, etc.) are also consistent with many other respiratory ailments.
A diagnosis is made by wetting the feathers on the neck with alcohol and transilluminating the trachea with a bright penlight. This procedure is best performed in a darkened room. With normal vision, the mites can be seen as dark, pinhead size, moving spots in the trachea.

The chicks should be fine even getting the meds if ASM is what you have.

wow thanks for this Debbie.

[MiaCarter]

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

They would all need to be treated if it's ASM.

But I would really try to definitively diagnose it, because if it's not ASM, it's very likely a respiratory infection which would require antibiotics. And they can go downhill very fast with a respiratory infection.

Do you have an avian vet who can help?

If it does not appear to be ASM, and appears to be an infection with nobody else showing symptoms, I would separate the mom and take your chances with only the dad raising the babies.

An infection would wipe them out very quickly, whereas ASM would be less likely to do so.
And you don't want to give antibiotics to parents who are feeding the babies if you can avoid it, as antibiotics kill off healthy bacteria in addition to the bad bacteria. That often results in a yeast infection in the crop. (Though if you have an antifungal med like Nystatin, that can counteract the problem.)

The dads often do a lion's share of feeding so he should be okay if you need to pull her. It's tough with a larger clutch, but one parent can raise the babies, especially if they're just hatched, as they're small and it's easy to feed them since it's such small amounts.

If all goes well, mom should be better by the time they're bigger and in need of more feeding.

It's hard when you have babies involved, but I always treat in a manner that favors the parent's health over the babies (bird or otherwise), for the babies will necessarily die if the parents die. (Unless you handfeed. That's certainly an option if the parents are too unwell to care for the babies. Certainly better to try handfeeding than letting them die a certain death if the parents will not or cannot care for them.)

Whatever you do, remember that they don't typically feed the babies within the first 24-36 hours of life.
So once they start feeding, whatever she has will be more likely to be transferred to the babies (assuming it hasn't already.) So if you decide you must pull the female, I would do it ASAP.

Tricky case. But I would definitely consult an avian vet if you can.

[debbie276]

I'm sure the chicks have already been fed by both parents by now if they hatched yesterday and today. A lot of my pairs feed the chicks right away. Haven't noticed the males feeding more then the hens. If this is the first time nesting for this pair I wouldn't separate them unless you are sure you have to. There are many misdiagnoses out there. Do you notice anything more then sneezing all the time and wiping her beak? Any discoloring of the droppings? Any loose droppings or a smell to them?

[vellad]

I'm sure the chicks have already been fed by both parents by now if they hatched yesterday and today. A lot of my pairs feed the chicks right away. Haven't noticed the males feeding more then the hens. If this is the first time nesting for this pair I wouldn't separate them unless you are sure you have to. There are many misdiagnoses out there. Do you notice anything more then sneezing all the time and wiping her beak? Any discoloring of the droppings? Any loose droppings or a smell to them?

I'm sure the chicks have already been fed by both parents by now if they hatched yesterday and today. A lot of my pairs feed the chicks right away. Haven't noticed the males feeding more then the hens. If this is the first time nesting for this pair I wouldn't separate them unless you are sure you have to. There are many misdiagnoses out there. Do you notice anything more then sneezing all the time and wiping her beak? Any discoloring of the droppings? Any loose droppings or a smell to them?

This is the first ever clutch they have.

No - only noticed the sneezing and the perch. Normal droppings.

I will wait till tomorrow to see if it continues - if it does then i will start them tomorrow or Monday.

[vellad]

The signs of air sac mites (open mouth breathing, clicking sounds, sneezing, tail-bobbing, etc.) are also consistent with many other respiratory ailments.
A diagnosis is made by wetting the feathers on the neck with alcohol and transilluminating the trachea with a bright penlight. This procedure is best performed in a darkened room. With normal vision, the mites can be seen as dark, pinhead size, moving spots in the trachea.

The chicks should be fine even getting the meds if ASM is what you have.

Debbie - quick question. Can it be any type of alcohol or does it have to have some degree of purity?

[debbie276]

Those directions came from a vets site which is now offline, I'm sure plain water will work as well.

[vellad]

Those directions came from a vets site which is now offline, I'm sure plain water will work as well.

Thanks Debbie.

[vellad]

Update - and need some more help.

So today I started the AMS treatment and just after an hour since the hen took the first drink she already seems better. This part is good and will continue monitoring.

I however have another question.

This pair had 6 eggs. 2 that hatched normally. Yesterday morning I found an egg on the bottom of the cage and I threw it away. The in the afternoon i found another egg which was partially open, got the egg and realized that the chick is alive and breathing so using tweezers i 'hatched' the egg myself and put it near the siblings.

I also had 2 other eggs still in the nest, i candled them and they where empty so I threw them away.

My issue is that I am noticing that I can only see 1 chick which has seeds in the crop. The other 2 do not have any seeds and one of them looks week (probably the one i 'rescued').

The one i rescued has been hatched for around 18 hours now so probably that is the reason why he has nothing in the crop yet but with everything going on (ASM) i wanted to see at what age should i be seeing seeds in the crop. Asking as I may have to hand rear it.

Thanks.

[debbie276]

The first couple day you don't really see seed in the crop just a very small yellowish bump on the right side like this:

If you see nothing at all you may have a problem with them being fed.
good luck

[vellad]

The first couple day you don't really see seed in the crop just a very small yellowish bump on the right side like this:

newborn.jpg

If you see nothing at all you may have a problem with them being fed.
good luck

Thanks Deb.

I found one one the floor cage. Fed him some electrolytes+food and put it back with the others.

Fingers crossed.

[debbie276]

Breeders should always have handfeeding formula on hand if they are breeding just for these times. A bit of formula would be a good boost of nutrition before you put them back in. As always be VERY careful you don't aspirate the chick when handfeeding.

best of luck