Help! Male finch is not a male, now . . . eggs.

[Tessa]

Hello all -

I'm really hoping you can help me. I'm not a newbie at birds (had a cockatiel for many years) but I am new with finches. I've had two society finches for a month now, both no more than a year old. I got them from a reputable local bird place with the "finch guy", who is "pretty good at this" putting aside two males for me.

Well, here we are now with two eggs. One fell to the bottom of the cage and broke, the other is being sat on. I don't know if I have one male and female or two females.

I so much didn't want to deal with eggs. Not only because I don't want to breed, but also because I've read they're hard on the female and you run the risk of egg binding.

So this has been very dispiriting but all I can do is deal with it. I found this article about discouraging breeding: http://www.finchaviary.com/Maintenance/ ... Aviary.htm - do you agree, disagree? What is the best thing you've found (other than having two males ) to discourage breeding and egg laying?

Thanks so much for your help!!

[lovezebs]

Tessa

Hi Tessa,

No need to panic, lol.

How attached have you become to your new birds?
Is there a chance of returning one and exchanging for another male?

I am really quite surprised that your bird guy made such a mistake. Societies, are quite easy to sex, if you know what to look for . Males sing, females do not sing, easy peasy.

Are either of your two singing?

Here is a link that will show you a male singing....
https://youtu.be/AyLsoKIwsj8

Females make a chirping sound, like this...
https://youtu.be/QroCdLnnIk8

Now no need to worry so much about your girl. Birds have been laying eggs for a long long time. Just make sure that you offer her cuttle bone and crushed egg shells for Calcium.

If you don't want babies, then you can remove the eggs and toss them. Also, I would remove the nest and any nesting materials if you have some in the cage. She may still lay an egg here and there, but they can be removed.

Shorten their daylight hours, by turning off lights earlier or covering their cage earlier in the evening.

Eggs, are laid one per day, untill Mom decides that her clutch is done. They will usually start sitting 'tight' (both day and night) after the third egg is laid, but some will start sooner.

Good luck.

[Tessa]

Am I panicking? I'm not panicking!! Omg, I'm panicking!!! Eggs!! Eggs!!

Breathe.

You're right, birds have been doing this a long time. And yeah, I'm surprised bird guy made this mistake too. Erg.

And no, nary a song, at least not like what I've heard in videos. Chirping definitely - in fact I called Merry "Cricket" for the first couple of weeks we had them. Merry is the one I suspect laid the eggs. Pippin may still turn out to be female too. He/she doesn't sing sing but he he has a version of something: very quiet, with his beak shut, in his throat. And he doesn't do it to try to impress Merry, but when they're cozied up together at bedtime, or he's coming into the nest when she's already there, or even just to himself. Any idea what that is?

I read that I should let them finish their clutch then give them a week to sit on the eggs, then remove the eggs and nest after that week. Does that sound right?

We hate to ditch the nest because they are just the most adorable things all snug in there at night, side by side with their tails crossed. But if it has to be done it has to be done.

Thanks so much for your input, I really appreciate it!

[Icearstorm]

Tessa
It may just be a nesting call, especially if you hear both birds doing it. My society finches always make this relatively deep and drawn out noise when they get in the nest or want another bird to switch out for incubation duties.
Since they may be of the opposite sex and the eggs may be fertile, this is not a good idea (the embryos may start developing after a few days of incubation). Fake eggs are probably a better idea; they will ease the urge to lay and will likely be accepted by the society finches. After a few weeks to a month, they will probably abandon the nest, allowing you to remove it without too much stress.
Finches can adapt to become perch-sleepers, but alternatively, you could get a flat ledge for them to sleep on. With no nesting material, it should not stimulate breeding, though you never know with society finches.

[Barbara]

Tessa I ran into the same problem as you I wanted two males bought one that I knew was a male ,bought another one from someone that told me he bred them and he was pretty sure it was a male,well I also listen to people telling me they like to sleep in a nest even two males,so of course I put the nest in well sure enough I had four babies they are adorable and was so much fun too watch grow up I still have my family of six plus two more and they all sleep piled on the top perch sometime one pops up and sleeps on top of the one next to him,nest came out after last baby fledged,I keep all open dishes at the lowest part of the cage and no eggs yet and it's been a year,they all love there cuttlebones bone and egg mixture I make with the egg shells and hopefully none will get egg bound there are both males and females.my advice if no babies no nest,best of luck with your decision,

[Sojourner]

1) Remove anything that remotely resembles a nest from the cage. That includes egg cups - mine have laid eggs in those tiny egg cups and then tried to sit them. Stick with shallow, narrow, small feed cups, or feed silos, or what they call a "vacation hopper". They not only can't get in these to lay eggs, they also can't turn around and poop in them either.

2) regulate temperature. Mine seem to stop showing mating behavior if I keep it about 67F - but now they are in a warm spot and guess what, it started back up again. I can stand over there and that spot is for some odd reason noticeably warmer even to me.

3) cover them at night when it gets to be dusk and don't uncover until after dawn. Shorter "days" also seems to reduce mating behavior. I use cheap blackout curtains I got on sale.

4) Feed fewer treats - my staple for the finches is actually parakeet seed as my guys WILL NOT eat the rape and flax seed that they add to finch mixes. They ALWAYS leave it. I always have dry CeDe egg food and sunflower chips in the cage and I typically rotate treat seeds such as hulled hemp and nyjer through. Removing extra foods has never stopped mating behavior by itself for me, but when they are acting up, try everything.

KEEP some fake eggs on hand and then pray you don't need them. When my guys started laying again (after being moved from my son's house where I had them stabilized to here, where they are now in the sole Banana Belt spot in the room even though the furnace is set to a chilly 67F) I decided to go the fake egg route and went ahead and put one of the ginormous D-cups that came with the cage back in there, intending to get some fake eggs and start replacing/discarding.

Well guess what, I had one of my "drifty" periods where time has no meaning for me (its part of my disability) and they have now been sitting those eggs for long enough that I'm pretty sure I'm going to have babies soon. Unless (as I sincerely hope) the eggs are duds.

This would not have happened had I sensibly waited to do this until AFTER I had the fake eggs in hand. Be prepared. Get some fake eggs (GlamGouldians has these also) and hope you never need them.

Sure enough my guys are sitting there making those burbling noises, which just started yesterday, as you describe. I'm thinking if the chicks haven't pipped yet they're about to. Yay me! I slipped up! Dang me! Dang me to HECK!

As for telling who's male - societies don't ONLY sing, they CHANGE SHAPE when they sing. They go sort of pear-shaped. It looks like it would if you had a bag full of water and tried to drag it along the ground, sort of stretched out at the top and a pulled-out roundness at the bottom. Once you see it you will know it forever. In future I hope to use this to identify males BEFORE I buy, LOL!

My white hen, Pyewacket, was mistaken for a male initially because she did sing when I first got her. Young females WILL sometimes sing (this will stop when they mature) and they sound like young males just learning their song. But they don't go pear-shaped - so you can look for the body shape change even in young birds that don't have their full song yet.

Not seeing it in a young bird doesn't necessarily mean that is definitely a female, but seeing means 100% that it is a male. Older birds that don't do it will most likely be females but very young birds are still learning and I'm not sure when a young male will start posturing as well as singing. Pet store birds tend to be younger.

BTW there is a so-called "society finch" out there that is called (I think, something like) the European Brown Black "Society" finch.

These ARE NOT SOCIETY FINCHES. They are a society x some sort of munia which (more or less) breeds true.

THEY LOOK LIKE SPICE FINCHES.

These do not behave anything like societies so this type of so-called "society" does not sound or look anything like real society finches. The mating song is different and they won't go pear shaped when they sing so you can't use this method (looking for the shape change) to sex these birds. They are also lousy parents, have lots of fertility problems, and don't breed easily.

Actually that last may be a GOOD thing if you don't want babies.

So assuming you have ANY OTHER type of society, you can watch for the body shape change while singing to tell who the male is even more easily than trying to identify the song alone. Especially as many pet stores now keep their birds behind glass and you can't hear them, the shape-changing trick can be quite handy to identify definite male society finches.

[Tessa]

Thank you so much everyone, for your input, it has been so helpful.

Yesterday I checked the nest again and there was still only that one egg; I replaced it with a fake and about a couple hours later they both decided they weren't interested and were bouncing and flitting around their cage normally again, so I took the nest out entirely. They have now only a seed cup which I want to take out mostly because it's unnecessarily large, but also so they don't decide to lay in there.

They have me quite confused about their sex. Yesterday I caught one of them waggling her tail and leaning forward and the other hopping up on her back, but it was so quick and caught me off guard that I couldn't figure out who was who before they were bouncing around the cage again. I could have sworn it was Merry who was doing the waggling and Pippin the mounting, but then later I saw Pippin doing the waggling and leaning forward!! Huh?! And today, just very briefly, Merry popped up onto Pippin's back and flapped vigorously even though Pippin had done no waggling. So, yeah, not sure what I've got here. Still no singing or pear-shaping. They make the same vocalizations. The only difference between them is their posture and body shape. Merry is a little more rounded and sits low on a perch kinda forward like he/she is ready for anything, ready to fly off (though relaxed). Pippin is more slender and sits in an upright posture so that across the room you can tell which is which. Other than that, Merry is the first to check out something new while Pippin likes to wait and think about things first.

Finches really are great birds though, aren't they? We are really enjoying them. I'm already thinking about having more once I've got the room one day. Unfortunately right now I've only got room for one cage that's only big enough for two birds.

[lovezebs]

Tessa

Glad that the emergency has been averted for this time anyway.

By the way, when birds mate, it only takes a few seconds .
Also males will mount males, and females will mount females on occasion.

Find some videos on your cell phone of Society male Finches singing, and play it right close to your cage. Watch carefully for your birds reaction.

[Tessa]

Tessa

Also males will mount males, and females will mount females on occasion.

Find some videos on your cell phone of Society male Finches singing, and play it right close to your cage. Watch carefully for your birds reaction.

I figured males would mount males, but I wasn't sure about females mounting females. It doesn't seem like a behavior that would be 'coded' into them, you know?

I will definitely find some video of male finches singing, thanks for the suggestion! How would a male react differently than a female?

[lovezebs]

Tessa

A female will listen with great interest.

A male will puff up into a pear shape, start turning from side to side, and start singing.