European goldfinch experts?

[isobea]

Hi everyone,
I have kept and bred goldfinches for over 20 years but I've never come across this problem.
A little background first: early in March I got this female from an acquaintance who lost her male goldie (puppy knocked over the cage and he got away). She had had the pair for over a year. They were supposedly healthy even though I found out later she had fed them the typical finch mix. I offered this female a really good seed mix with plenty of oily seeds, grasses, sow thistle seed heads, green aphids - she devoured all of that.
When I picked her up, she had air sack mites (treated with Ivomec), basically just sat in the cage and hardly moved (even when I changed the water and food), meaning she was quite sick. Next I treated her with an antibiotic (Enrofloxyn) - hardly any improvement. The members of our bird club recommended Doxybiotic -S and I gave her that. Finally getting better, moving more, clearly afraid of humans (as she should be being a wild-caught bird) and showing interest in her surroundings.
By now she has been out in my aviary for about three weeks, eats, drinks and behaves pretty normal.
EXCEPT whenever she sits still for a while, she starts poking around in her feathers (mostly her chest and belly), again and again for long stretches of time. As if she had feather mites or something was making her extremely itchy. I checked her but can't find anything unusual. None of my other birds behave that way. It's almost like an obsessive compulsive behavior.
Does anybody know if this could be caused by at least 15 to 18 months of having had to eat the wrong seed mix? I'm thinking that could have damaged her organs (liver, kidneys,...). But would that cause this itchiness? I'm just guessing, trying to find an explanation and a way to correct this.
Hopefully somebody has come across this type of behavior before and has an answer for me.
I'd love to hear your ideas and suggestions.
Iso

[lovezebs]

isobea

Hi Iso,

I know nothing about Golfinches.

I do however know a bit about kidney disease.
People with kidney disease very often suffer from the itchies.

This itchiness, is caused by toxin build up in the body, which the diseased kidneys are unable to flush out. This build up of toxins can start to emerge through the skin, causing itchiness, rashes, hives, and all sorts of nasty things.

[isobea]

lovezebs - Thanks for the quick response, Elana. Funny you mention that. Organ damage was one of my first thoughts as well. Talked to my long-time German friend (he's been breeding and showing finches for about 60 years) and he thought that could very well be the case but didn't know any specifics. I didn't know about kidney problems causing itchiness. If that should be the case, I wonder if there is anything I can do to help her.
Does anybody else have any ideas?
Iso

[isobea]

Something I forgot to mention: those of you who are keeping or have kept goldfinches know that usually they 'chatter' a lot. This female, in the almost two months I have had her, has not uttered one single sound!
I have absolutely no explanation for that either. I do need all the help I can get.
Iso

[gostokom]

Hi

Let her bath first, with aloe or appel vineger added to the watter

It's happned to me once with an EG cock in small cage.

He prefer to sleep hight with light off when it's time to go to bed, if he did not have this two conditions, he start sharping its beak and pluck his chest feathers one after one, again and again.

[isobea]

gostokom - Thank you for your reply. My female is outside in a big aviary and has access to bathwater at all times. I can try to add some apple cider vinegar to the water and see if it helps.
But also, she does not pull out any of her feathers, just pokes around in them endlessly. Still at a loss as to what to do.
Iso

[jonvill]

Hi Iso,
Does your EGF have charcoal in the aviary? I think it might help remove toxins from the body.
I would also feed Dandelions ( the whole plant, root, greens and flowers) and Groundsel. Both have amazing internal cleansing properties.
Best,
John

[isobea]

jonvill - Hi John, thanks for your suggestions. Yes, charcoal is always available. I know that I've seen groundsel around here somewhere in the neighborhood. Will have to keep my eyes open from now on. I didn't really know anything about this plant, so appreciate you alerting me to it.
Dandelion: I have some plants growing in my lawn but they are rather puny compared to the big, healthy plants I was used to seeing in Germany. Since sow thistle is a relative, do you think it has similar properties? I've been feeding its fresh seed heads every day for several weeks now.
Do you have any other ideas/suggestions? I remember you've been keeping goldfinches for many years as well - have you ever come across this strange behavior in any of your birds?
Iso

[isobea]

jonvill - I just went on a 1 1/2 hour walk/hike around our neighborhood - no groundsel or dandelion anywhere! I remember seeing it, so it must have been in the winter/very early spring. Right now everything is drying up very quickly as we haven't had any rain since 2/27.
I seem to remember seeing dried dandelion leaves for sale in the health food stores. Do you think a tea of dandelion leaves would be beneficial?
Iso

[jonvill]

I have seen dandelion leaves and roots available in the health food stores too. I think it's worth a try. I would just feed the leaves and root as is (dried, like Herb Salad) instead of making a tea.

I used to feed the sow thistle plant whole too. My birds would eat the aphids off the undersides of the leaves.

[isobea]

jonvill - I'm going to the health food store tomorrow. With hope they will have some dandelion leaves.
My birds love aphids as well. Strangely enough, they prefer the green ones over the orange or black ones. About three weeks ago I had an abundance on one of the shrubs in my yard, but since I don't use pesticides, nature took care of the 'problem' and they are all gone. I'm hoping they will soon show up on the nasturtiums.
I also used to have (and protect) broad-leaf plantains in my yard and the goldfinches always loved picking the seeds off the stems. Since I didn't keep GFs for several years, I eliminated the plantains. I'll have to see if I can reintroduce them. They also have healing properties.
Iso

[andiok]

isobea
hey there.
sry to hear you're having some trouble with the little beauty.
Now first of all, that is a lot of meds you've used in only 2months especially for goldies.
I would advice not jumping on conclusions and starting meds but
if you have a chance to test the feces would be the best way to approach sick goldies.
Anyway whats done is done. I am pretty sure that whatever you gave it, has worked since it is more active and flying around.

Now about the issue...
I dont think this is due to the amount of meds used or blood poisoning. If it was that the birds would have been very inactive or dead by now.
One way to figure if its from the liver is to check their tummy. If you see any enlargement and dark blueish color then yes it could be poisoning and the liver is having a hard time filtering.
In that case i suggest you dose charcoal in the water for detox and use plants that help detoxifying (just google some plants of herbs).

To be honest i havent experienced this kind of behavior in my flock unless they had mites or it was molting time.
What i would do is put her back in a large cage and monitor better her health. Try to give it almost privacy so they dont get stressed (its one of the factors why they get sick so fast).
Check their droppings, that will tell you lots.
And dont worry about the sounds yet. It takes them awhile to get used to the cage before they start even chirping.
Sry could help you more..

[isobea]

andiok - Thanks for your input.
Yes, that was a lot of medications but she was so unbelievably sick, never really moving in her cage. I had a heat lamp on one side and she would sit there, only moving to eat and drink. I felt I had to try everything to make her better. And after the second antibiotic she did visibly improve.
I caught her several days ago and there are no outward signs of disease. Her feces are normal, too. I wonder if Elana's idea about kidney damage (and the resulting itchiness) really might be the cause. I tried to find some information about that but didn't get anywhere.
A week and a half ago I bought a male for her, a beautiful, lively and inquisitive bird. Chatters all day long and sings a lot. The weird thing is she completely ignores him. I thought she might at least respond vocally to him but she still hasn't made one sound. Also not the typical turning of the body that goldfinches usually do.
One big mystery.
Iso

PS: I forgot to mention I've been adding probiotics to the water for quite a while now. I figured it's beneficial to all of my birds.

[andiok]

isobea well let me tell you again you have done a great job with her. And i am pretty sure she is off to a good start. I say that because it is actually not very common that goldfinches will recover this fast. Unfortunately they are very delicate prone to lots of different deceases due to stress.

Regarding her voice, give her time. She will start chirping and making sounds after she gets used. Dont forget what she's been through.
Unless she is a he and is getting intimidated from the new Male. Post some pics if unsure.

Just some advice.

Try to keep them separated from other birds even other goldfinches.
Make sure they like each other before you put them together in smaller cages. Let them sit close to each other in separate cages for quite some time till you see that body twist or feeding each other. When you're sure they get a long then I would keep them in a large cage (4'-6' x 2' is perfect) and you have more control over the nest and babies.

Medication you need to have in hand for them are
1. baycox for coccidia (this is the most succesfull anti coccidiosis for goldfinch) they are prone to coccidia all the time.
Humidity is one factor.
Stress another.

2. Antibiotics which you have
3. Antiparasites i have used Frontline Combo for cats for the last 15yrs with great success with them.

And like i mentioned above if you have a chance to test their feces when you're seeing issues is the way to go.

Provide lots of natural plants and herbs for them.
1.dandelion is their favorite when the flower is dried and they eat the seeds.
2.Stellaria media, chickweed is a great plant for them especially when they are breeding and feeding chicks.
3.Capsella bursa-pastoris, known by its common name shepherd's purse
4.milk thistle Silybum marianum
5.Common chicory, Cichorium intybus

let me know if you need any other info.

[isobea]

andiok - Thanks for supporting me in my efforts. She really has come a long, long way from basically being catatonic when I first got her.
I got my first goldfinches in 1982 in Germany and there it was so easy to find all the plants you mentioned. Here, in this dry climate, it is a little more difficult, but I have chickweed, sow thistle, some dandelions and different grasses growing in my own yard. This year I have not been able to find shepherd's purse yet but I've already planted some chicory seeds and the first seed heads of my canary seed plants are blooming and ripening nicely. Also my flax has already bloomed and the seed capsules are at the half-ripe stage. I go out to collect fresh green foods twice a day.
You know, I never found goldfinches to be delicate birds, neither in Germany (in an indoor aviary)nor here where I have kept them since 1986 in my outside aviary. The only problem I've ever had was in 2009/2010 when the mosquitos transmitted the canary pox virus and it wiped out all my birds (goldfinches, red siskins, yellow black-headed siskins and canaries). Now the pox has been gone for a few years and this is my first pair of goldfinches again.
I would rather leave them outside where they have plenty of room to exercise, get fresh air and sunshine. Over lunch, when I was out on our patio, I saw the male do his body twist right next to her and she responded with a tiny twist of her own. One step in the right direction. I am positive she is a female going by her mask and the tiny little brown feathers on top of her shoulders. Also, I have a pair of lavender waxbills on eggs that should hatch any day now and I don't want to put stress on them by catching the goldfinches.
Again, I really appreciate your advice. If you can think of anything else, please let me know.
Iso