Grey Society Finch

Learn about mutations and expected breeding outcomes.
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Rob
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Grey Society Finch

Post by Rob » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:39 pm

I was at my local pet store last night and came across a light grey society finch. I couldn't find much information about grey societies which a) made me think it's a rare mutation and b) left me wondering what I have (I just had to buy it, as well as what looks like an actual chocolate self)

First two pictures are from the pet store (with better lighting) and the second is at home, with pretty dim lighting so the color isn't as clear. The grey one looks bigger than the rest of my societies, so I'm thinking it might be a euro.

Questions:
  • What mutation is this?
  • What would be the best pairing for breeding, given I only have one? From what I remember, chocolate is dominant, so would fawn be a good choice?
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Fraza
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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Fraza » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:01 pm

It looks like you have an almost grey pearl society finch the rarest type of society finch mutation I have a pure Male one my self however yours isn’t pure but you can still create a pure one by breeding it with a self society finch so there’s no white patches or wihite feathers.

If that white line on his wing wouldn’t have been there he might have been a full grey pearl.

Is it a he or is it a she ???
FINCHES I HAVE
Bengalese
zebras
Java sparrows
Silver bills
java x beng hybrid



PETS IVE HAD
dogs
Fish
Cocktiel
Doves
Hybrid cherry x Bengalese
Stars
Heck’s
Canary’s

My favourite is COCO my grey pearl society cock been here since the start my flock leader


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Fraza
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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Fraza » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:03 pm

I’ve actually bred my grey pearl to a double factor pied fawn female and I produced always two browns and one white like this one above you have but I could never manage a full one so you need to breed it with a self finch then once you get a self silver you can then breed it with a single factor pied and you will get another grey pearl
FINCHES I HAVE
Bengalese
zebras
Java sparrows
Silver bills
java x beng hybrid



PETS IVE HAD
dogs
Fish
Cocktiel
Doves
Hybrid cherry x Bengalese
Stars
Heck’s
Canary’s

My favourite is COCO my grey pearl society cock been here since the start my flock leader


YOUTUBE CHANNEL
https://m.youtube.com/results?q=fraser% ... de101&sm=3

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Fraza
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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Fraza » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:04 pm

And if chocolate is the one in the last pic yep pair it to that because you will definetly get a self then because your grey is a single factor pied also I’m sure the silver is more dominant than brown
FINCHES I HAVE
Bengalese
zebras
Java sparrows
Silver bills
java x beng hybrid



PETS IVE HAD
dogs
Fish
Cocktiel
Doves
Hybrid cherry x Bengalese
Stars
Heck’s
Canary’s

My favourite is COCO my grey pearl society cock been here since the start my flock leader


YOUTUBE CHANNEL
https://m.youtube.com/results?q=fraser% ... de101&sm=3

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Rob
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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Rob » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:58 pm

Fraza

Thanks! I couldn't believe it when I saw it in the store. I don't know where they got this batch from, but I knew it was something special.

It was hard to tell last night when I brought them home, but this morning listening to them I'm pretty sure it's a female, and the chocolate self is a male (haven't heard full song yet, but that's my guess). Maybe I'll leave them alone together, instead of adding them to the flock of societies, and see if they'll breed.

What's the difference between self silver and grey pearl?

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Fraza
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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Fraza » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:43 pm

Rob to be honest I don’t think they will be any difference I’ll add a pic of my grey pearl they just need the silver patterns on there cheek which looks like glitter has been spilt on it .

And sorry for the overboard of info am just so exited ur close to having a grey pearl they are so rare I’ve been looking and trying to find a mate for mine for months now and I’ve finally got them they have a clutch at the moment [-o<

And yeh even if u take them out alone and you shud here her preeing and he shud song either way u will be able to tell.

If you put a picture up of the silver ones face I might be able to guess by the eye placement :mrgreen:
FINCHES I HAVE
Bengalese
zebras
Java sparrows
Silver bills
java x beng hybrid



PETS IVE HAD
dogs
Fish
Cocktiel
Doves
Hybrid cherry x Bengalese
Stars
Heck’s
Canary’s

My favourite is COCO my grey pearl society cock been here since the start my flock leader


YOUTUBE CHANNEL
https://m.youtube.com/results?q=fraser% ... de101&sm=3

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Fraza
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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Fraza » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:47 pm

HERes the pics the second one where he’s in the nest shows the glitter on the cheeks
Attachments
72C4F1A0-1CC0-4262-B49F-9BC360DCBF0C.jpeg
1BC78CAC-CCA7-41E9-B4E0-1E22E06405F0.jpeg
FINCHES I HAVE
Bengalese
zebras
Java sparrows
Silver bills
java x beng hybrid



PETS IVE HAD
dogs
Fish
Cocktiel
Doves
Hybrid cherry x Bengalese
Stars
Heck’s
Canary’s

My favourite is COCO my grey pearl society cock been here since the start my flock leader


YOUTUBE CHANNEL
https://m.youtube.com/results?q=fraser% ... de101&sm=3

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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Flight Feathers » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:00 pm

So a self soceity is one with no white markings whatsoever? When I get my soceity finches which colors are good colors to get?
~Flight Feathers Bird Home~

14 Zebra Finches, 4 Budgies, 3 Cockatiels, 2 Canaries, 7 Chinese quail, 3 Bengalese Finches, 1 Turquoise Parrot, 1 Goldfinch

Now a member of the NZFBA!


http://www.thepictaram.club/instagram/f ... thersbirds

Icearstorm
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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Icearstorm » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:02 pm

Rob

The light upper beak suggests that this bird is an ino, which is sex-linked recessive, dependent on the Z sex chromosome. This leads me to think that this bird is female, as a female bird would only need the ino allele on her one Z chromosome, while a male would need two copies of the ino allele on both his Z chromosomes for the gene to express itself.

Female birds determine the sex of the offspring, by contributing either a Z chromosome or a W chromosome. The male bird has two Z chromosomes, and will therefore always contribute a Z chromosome to the offspring. This is the opposite of humans, in which males determine the sex of the offspring by contributing either an X or Y chromosome, while females only have X sex chromosomes.

This bird also looks to be single-factor pied, judging by its one white flight feather (though it may be a result of the lighting).

I'm not sure what the base color of this bird is; it might be grey, but I'm don't know what genes contribute to that color. Fawn would be the best mate choice since it is the most recessive. If you want self birds, then breed this bird to a self or a single-factor pied (usually looks like a self with small traces of white).

If this bird is female, then it is highly unlikely that any of its offspring will be ino, as ino is a rare allele that is probably absent in your other birds.

If your bird is male, then all of your female birds should be inos.

I will prepare some punnet squares to better explain.

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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Icearstorm » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:16 pm

Having to use ......... for proper formatting.

PUNNET SQUARES
-Allele: codes for trait on specific gene, like pied/self, non-ino/ino, or chocolate/chestnut/fawn
-Alleles in uppercase are dominant (using N here)
-Alleles in lowercase are recessive (using n here)
-ZZ are males, ZW are females


Format:
............................................Parent 1's two possible contributions
.
Parent 2's two...................offspring type 1................offspring type 2
possible contributions.........offspring type 3................offspring type 4

Offspring 1 gets left Parent 1's allele and top Parent 2's allele, for example.


Key
Z(N): Z chromosome with dominant non-ino allele
Z(n): Z sex chromosome with recessive ino allele
W: W sex chromosome, no gene related to ino exists



1.) If ino bird is female (Z(n)W), male bird is pure normal(Z(N)Z(N)):

................................Z(n) ............ W
.
................. Z(N)......Z(N)Z(n)......Z(N)W
.
..................Z(N)......Z(N)Z(n)......Z(N)W

All male offspring are split to ino and can pass on the ino allele, but do not look ino. The females are normal, and cannot contribute an ino allele.


2.) If ino bird is male(Z(n)Z(n)), female bird is pure normal(Z(N)W):

...............................Z(n).............Z(n)
.
............... Z(N)..........Z(N)Z(n)......Z(N)Z(n)
.
..................W............Z(n)W...........Z(n)W

All male offspring are split to ino and can pass on the ino allele, but do not look ino. The females are all ino, and will always contribute an ino allele.


These are probably the two cases you're facing. There are a few other ones, but they're more complex and unlikely, as your other birds probably don't have any ino alleles. I can make punnet squares for them later.

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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Icearstorm » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:28 pm

Rob
INO PUNNET SQUARES

Z(N)Z(N): pure/homozygous normal male
Z(N)Z(n): male split/heterozygous for ino, looks normal
Z(N)W: normal female
Z(n)W: ino female

I'm going to redo the first two for the sake of clarity.


1.) If ino bird is female, male is homozygous normal:

................................Z(n)............W
.
................. Z(N)......Z(N)Z(n)......Z(N)W
.
..................Z(N)......Z(N)Z(n)......Z(N)W

0% of all offspring look ino.
Genetically...
50% are non-ino females, and will never pass on an ino allele.
50% are males split to ino. They do not look ino, but will pass on an ino allele 50% of the time.


2.) If ino bird is male, female is normal :

................................Z(N)............W
.
................. Z(n)......Z(N)Z(n)......Z(n)W
.
..................Z(n)......Z(N)Z(n)......Z(n)W

50% of all offspring, 0% male and 100% female, look ino.
Genetically...
50% are ino females. They will always pass an ino allele to their male offspring, and never pass an ino allele on to their female offspring.
50% are males split to ino. They do not look ino, but will pass on an ino allele 50% of the time.


3.) If ino bird is female, male is split to ino:

................................Z(n)............W
.
................. Z(N)......Z(N)Z(n)......Z(N)W
.
..................Z(n)......Z(n)Z(n)......Z(n)W

50% of all offspring, 50% male and 50% female, look ino.
Genetically...
25% are ino males. They will always pass on the ino allele.
25% are ino females. They will always pass an ino allele to their male offspring, and never pass an ino allele on to their female offspring.
25% are non-ino females, and will never pass on an ino allele.
25% are males split to ino. They do not look ino, but will pass on an ino allele 50% of the time.


Here's where you have ino-ino pairings.
4.) If male and female birds are inos:

................................Z(n)............W
.
................. Z(n)......Z(n)Z(n)......Z(n)W
.
..................Z(n)......Z(n)Z(n)......Z(n)W

100% of the birds look ino.
Genetically...
50% are homozygous ino males. They will always pass on an ino allele.
50% are ino females. They will always pass on an ino allele to their male offspring, and never pass on an ino allele to their female offspring.


And now normal-normal pairings, which will not apply to your ino bird, but may do so for its offspring.
5.) If female is normal, male is split to ino:

................................Z(N)............W
.
................. Z(N)......Z(N)Z(N)......Z(N)W
.
..................Z(n)......Z(N)Z(n)......Z(n)W

25% of all offspring, 50% of females and 0% of males, look ino.
Genetically...
25% are homozygous normal males. They will have normal-looking offspring no matter who they are paired to.
25% are normal females. They can only have female ino offspring if the male they are paired to is ino or split to ino.
25% are males split to ino. They do not look ino, but will pass on an ino allele 50% of the time.
25% are ino females. Ino females will always pass an ino allele to their male offspring, and never pass an ino allele on to their female offspring.


6.) If male is homozygous normal, female is normal:

................................Z(N)............W
.
................. Z(N)......Z(N)Z(N)......Z(N)W
.
..................Z(N)......Z(N)Z(N)......Z(N)W

0% of birds look ino.
Genetically...
50% are non-ino females. They can only have female ino offspring if the male they are paired to is ino or split to ino.
50% are homozygous normal males. They will have normal-looking offspring no matter who they are paired to.


I can make some pied punnet squares as well, if you'd like. They're quite a bit simpler than these.

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Rob
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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Rob » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:53 pm

Wow, thanks Icearstorm !! Great information.

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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Fraza » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:39 am

Icearstorm that’s helped me out gheez I was like wow I couldn’t stop reading looks like I may have one on the way with my recent clutch
FINCHES I HAVE
Bengalese
zebras
Java sparrows
Silver bills
java x beng hybrid



PETS IVE HAD
dogs
Fish
Cocktiel
Doves
Hybrid cherry x Bengalese
Stars
Heck’s
Canary’s

My favourite is COCO my grey pearl society cock been here since the start my flock leader


YOUTUBE CHANNEL
https://m.youtube.com/results?q=fraser% ... de101&sm=3

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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by haroun » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:43 am

Icearstorm =D> INO is sex linked ,on society ?!

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Re: Grey Society Finch

Post by Icearstorm » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:57 pm

haroun

That's what it says on The Finch Information Center.

After some more research, there could be a small chance that Rob's bird is a dilute fawn grey, but I can't find any pictures of what that would look like. I'd guess it would be a pale version of this fawn grey bird:
image.jpeg
The lack of dilute fawn grey photos suggests that the difficulty of breeding one is even harder than breeding an ino of whatever Rob's bird is (chestnut grey, perhaps?). A dilute society like that would probably have to be fawn, as it looks like dilute alone won't turn the bird's upper bill pink. There's also a very small chance that the pied allele would make the beak uniformly pink, though pied that changes beak color also tends to make the patches above the bird's beak white, likely due to proximity.

Rob
What color are your bird's eyes?

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