My Zebra finch Genetics Q..

[ElizabethAZ]

Let me first start my question by saying hello, and introducing my self, I am new here , and although I am not a stranger to owning zebras, this is my first time breeding them, and I have a question with regards to my new hatchlings, and their parents genetics..

The father is a lightback, a poor quality one I guess .. he was a "Petsmart" special. I went to three different Petsmart stores, and four local petshops to compare the birds that each had.. The local shops only had normals, some whites, and one store boasted florida fancy. But since the lightback caught my attention first, I decided he was the best looking one. He had the lightest color-- more whitish than gunsmoke, wasn't pied, or didn't look like he had a leg in the grave.

Originally I wasn't interested in breeding, but my poor lonley bird didn't sing, or didn't do much of anything except sulk, and beep a low miserable beep.. Then I remembered something else I saw while I was out and about.. the store with the 'florida fancies' also had black cheeks..

I found my bird a female, who was all by herself in the indoor mixed flight aviary (lucky bird, all the others were in glass cages, with no light, and all looked beat up/ sick) Being the healthiest and most robust bird, and being a female I bought her. She is a black cheek, however, her brest is very yellow compared to all the other female birds I have seen, and her black cheeks look more like giant black tears..not patches.. So here I have the perfect match, two imperfect birds to spread the love..and they did.

Their first clutch has three chicks
1 is a very light fawn color with white tipped wings and a white throat half black cheeks, white belly, no brest bar feathers, and it's beak is starting to turn orangish... Possible female?? Male?
2 Is very light grey, but has a very yellow belly like mom, and has black tears like her too, and yellow beak and feet.. I'm guessing a possible female??
3 very light grey with black cheeks, grey "chestnut feathers", yellow beak and feet, and a few feathers for a breast bar.. Possible Male?

I don't know their sexes yet, I don't believe they have molted into their adult colors yet-- which could mean that their color could darken/change slightly right??, although one keeps trying to sing-- I hear him, just havn't caught him doing it yet!

Now for the question:
What the heck just happened with my birds?! According to the genetic calculator I found I was supposed to have all normals with this combo-- right?? I'm just a little confused..and need someone to clarify.

[Nagdabit]

As far as I'm concerned when it comes to Zebras you can throw those stinkin' genetic calculators away. They may have some value in giving one a general idea of what to expect but unless you know the heritage of your birds at least one or two generations back you just can not account for whatever splits they might be carrying. Especially when one is buying those birds from a pet store making it virtually impossible to trace their history.

We are by no means experts on breeding Zebras. I still have a difficult time with the whole dominant / recessive / sex linked inheritance thing. Our experience mostly comes from just putting birds together and seeing what the results are. Going now into our fourth generation in some instances, and we still can not accurately predicts the results. Even couples that have had a number of clutches for us generally do produce the same mutations, but even they will throw out an oddball every now and then.

Okay rant over. Please note that my comments were not meant to attack any one, just to express how incredibly complex breeding Zebras and their plethora of mutations can be. Our original breeding stock came from a pet store as well, and the resulting birds have been a veritable mixed bag of different mutations.

The little bit that I do know about Zebras is that the Black Cheek mutation is recessive, meaning that unless both the male and female are at the very least split to Black Cheek, you won't get any Black Cheek babies. Best case scenario for resulting birds would be split as well, which sounds like what you have. Enlarged tear drop markings are an physical indicator that a bird is split to Black Cheek.

One other thing I might add is are you sure your male is a Light Back and not a Single Factor Florida Fancy? (Also known as a Florida Silver) Here is a link to a pic of a SF/FF. Please note while this guy is on the Fawnish side, they can be a light gray as well. If the gray coloring is mottled then chances are he's a SF/FF. If it's more uniform than you probably have a Light Back.

http://www.efinch.com/birdpix4/sfff.jpg

There are other indicators as well which I can even begin to explain as well as the experts. Check out this link for more info...

http://www.efinch.com/species/lbzeb.htm

Like I said I'm not properly schooled on breeding and identifying Zeebs, but if you could possibly post some pics I'd be more than happy to give it a go. I never was one for following written directions, always been able to relate to images better than words. Either way, the folks around here always like to see pictures of pretty birdies.

[ElizabethAZ]

Tried to take pics, but they are all blurry..my camera is crap lol.

[ElizabethAZ]

Tried to get a good pick of their backs/tails, but those were the worst photos, they had alot of white glare... My male/dad looks like the bird in the efinch link, except that his tail isn't solid black..it's a darkish brown color. The pictures I took make him look like a blue grey with orange clown cheeks

His eyes are red, and he could be a CFW Continental.. according to what I read on efinch, but I'm no expert, and with the crappy pics I managed to take lol, I guess I will never know.

[LeWi]

Salam

may u take clearer pictures please ? so i can help u out ?

[Ameza]

You might want to try to use flash, I don't know if your poor camera is so poor or if they birds are moving so much but flash can help. Also if you can get close to them, I have found it helping a lot to use macro for better focus.

Good luck.

[Nagdabit]

Even in those pics, you can see the split from the Black Cheek. In the first pic, Dad's cheek patches appear to be a lighter coloration, more of an apricot than the usual rusty orange. . Is that actually the case or is it a photographic illusion? Cause lighter colored cheek patches would be an indicator of Light back. FF's usually retain the full strength of colored markings, replacing any black with the rust / orange. The presence of a black breast bar would mean he's not any type of FF.

[ElizabethAZ]

Tried a different camera.. the Birds were a littttle more coperative today. But the lighting is still more blue than it should be...hmm AAnnnd now the image is too big to post...


welll, how about this then...(let me know if it does/ doesn't work)

(Osiris-dad- holding still for a moment)


(Dad with the kids)


(mom on the branch, baby next to dad on the ground)

[ElizabethAZ]

...In the first pic, Dad's cheek patches appear to be a lighter coloration, more of an apricot than the usual rusty orange. . Is that actually the case or is it a photographic illusion? ...

No his cheeks are a light buff-tan color. The image colors are off. In real-life you have to strain to see the difference between his head color and his wings/back. In the images, you can see that his head looks blue-grey, which is incorrect., and in the pic of him on my ceiling fan, his cheeks look bright orange, and his body a blue-gunsmoke color (also completely INCORRECT) I just can't seem to get the right balance of color


With flash, it white washes out everything, and makes my birds look like white ghosts (not worth posting)... so unfortunately, with the poor lighting in my room, no matter what I do, I still get a blue wash over everything! But I almost feel it's better to have blue-grey birds, than white glowing splotches with beaks lol...

He looks alot like this first bird at the e-finch link posted earlier..
http://www.efinch.com/species/lbzeb.htm

However,
As you can see in the first picture (of the new ones I just posted) he has more of a yellow-ish wash over the color of his body-- which is exagerated by my camera..I am not a photographer by any stretch of my imagination lol, And he dosen't have that nice thick bar of much desired chestnut feathers along his sides/flank. Also his chest bar is interrupted/not solid in the middle (you can kinda see that in the pic when he's perching with the kids on the branch). And the scaleing of black feathers on his neck is not as defined, his scales are a dark grey-black color, and are verrrry thin/ almost 'blurry'..hence the appearence of him having a blue/grey head.

[Nagdabit]

Sounds and appears as though Dad is indeed a Lightback. Even if he doesn't meet the criteria exactly, that's most likely because there are other mutations at work to wash things out a bit. The characteristics discussed by Mr. Beckham on efinch generally are describing an ideal specimen of a specific mutation, in other words, a show quality bird. And since there are so many different Zebra mutations out there to muck things up, show quality birds aren't necessarily easy to come by.

As for the kids, It looks like the young 'un to dad's right in the second picture might be your male that you keep hearing. In that picture it looks like the beginning of a breast bar at work. His coloring looks darker than the other two, so he's probably a normal gray split to Black Cheek. Although I just noticed in the third pic with him on the bottom, it looks like the beginnings of flank markings are starting to poke their way through. At present they seem rather dark. If they stay that way he might actually be a Black Cheek. As for the others, it appears as though they are like their daddy, Lightbacks. If I remember correctly the white bellies are also an indicator of the mutation. Can't really tell sex in those pics, but I would guess hens.

We too, have a Lightback hen that is split to Black Cheek. I personally think it's a very attractive combination. We are planning on putting her together with a CFW male that we think is also split to Black Cheek. Very anxious to see what results from that combination.

[LeWi]

Salam

both parents are split BC
one of the babies has a black cheek as it appears in the pics
and the father as all mentioned is light back with the possibility of another split
mother looks normal gray in her picture

nice family

[Nagdabit]

both parents are split BC

LeWi

Just curious, do you see any visual indicators to show that the male is split to BC or are you going by the resulting chicks ?

[LeWi]

Salam

the chicks helped to confirm but the male's tear drop is not normal. it is thicker and forming a semicircle under his eye

[Nagdabit]

the male's tear drop is not normal. it is thicker and forming a semicircle under his eye

Thanks, don't think I'll ever get the hang of all of these indicators. Even after you pointed it out I still can't see it. Figured if the chicks are Black Cheek then Dad has to have it in him some how. Appreciate the help.

[ElizabethAZ]

Salam
.. but the male's tear drop is not normal. it is thicker and forming a semicircle under his eye

Lol, I strained to find what exactly you saw in the tear drop as well..I even got on a ladder and stared my bird down in his cage , and still didn't see anything "unusual" other than my bird giving me the classic head cocked "what-you look'n at?!" stare back...

So, I moved the kids out..since they are fully weaned and mom and dad wanted their space. I kept the black cheek-pied hen from this clutch. She and her and mom are sharing a roomy bachlorette cage, and I tried to restrain myself,..but now dad has a new fawn cheeked girlfriend. Guesses on what the genetics will be out of this clutch??