I think S76 didn't work...

trevorama · Post by **trevorama** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:09 am

What does hypermotile mean? I checked merriam webster but it's not in there.

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:45 am

I have no idea, I also searched but didn't find much about it related to birds but that's what it says on finches.org:

Lumpy or Undigested food: Incomplete digestion, Giardia, hypermotile intestine

rottielover · Post by **rottielover** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:06 pm

I tend to be an optimist (glass half full type instead of half emtpy), so for a bird that you expected to be dead the next morning, I'd take it as a good sign.

From what I've read about that NV Powder, it sounds like you should probably continue to use it, since he's not digesting all the seeds yet. The informaton on NV powder sounds like it's a highly digestable food/energy source (contains glucose), and the bird is going to need all the energy he can get to heal and get better.

No blood in the stool when there used to be some hopefully means some healing is going on.

Since your seeing improvement, even slight, I'd probably continue the new medicine for it's full course.

Undigested food now, combined with the bloody stool you observed earier, I think points to the ulcers we were talking about earlier. If the blood is gone, then the lining has healed to the point where it's not bleeding anymore, but probably isnt' healed to the point yet where he can fully digest food. Anything that's "easier" to digest than whole seeds will be a boost for him.

I def. have my fingers crossed for you!!

Please keep us updated.

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:00 pm

Thanks a lot Rottie, I did more research on undigested food and turns out that Erythromycin is the suggested treatment and luckily for me it is included in the Tetracycline medicine I'm giving him now so it should take care of this problem as well.

I also added the NV powder hours ago and I'm not sure if this was coincidence or not, but just 10 mins ago I heard him attempting to sing and even though it's very low I was still able to hear it several times! Of course this bird was 100% mute since day one, I never heard any sound come out of him until today so I take this as an excellent sign and I'm very excited about that!

Although I wanted to know if I should worry about the growth on the feet? Is that normal? He doesn't seem bothered by it so far but if it needs treatment I think it would be better to start now while he's still in the hospital cage.

rottielover · Post by **rottielover** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:40 pm

That's extremly excellent news!!!

I'm so glad to hear it!

And don't forget Fairest, Sally, and eveyone!!

At this point I have no idea about his feet, I'll start researching and let you know what I turn up. In the mean time, I def. think you need to keep the little guy isolated in "the hospital", and based on how sick he was I think your going to want to keep him under observation for a good while.

rottielover · Post by **rottielover** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:55 pm

Best link I've found about the foot thus far:

http://www.lostmymarblz.com/fl-health-f ... aged%20Leg:

About 3/4 of the way down the page, there's a blurb about nodules, and the poster recomends a couple of books on the subject.

Other websites were not as helpful, they referance various virus, mites, etc.

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:47 am

And don't forget Fairest, Sally, and eveyone!!

Absolutely!! Of course everyone has been tremendously helpful and I truly appreciate it!

Anyhow here's some unexciting info, I just searched what was mentioned in the page you provided me (avian pox) and here's a description:

Signs of avian pox are wart-like nodules on one or more of the featherless areas of a bird, often causing the bird to appear weak and emaciated if the lesions interfere with feeding.

Utah Division of Wildlife Resources

Avian pox occurs in 2 forms, cutaneous (dry) and diphtheritic (wet). The cutaneous form is the most commonly observed and is a self-limiting infection with the lesions regressing and forming scars. Initially, this form of pox appears as a small white, pink or yellow vesicle (blister) on unfeathered parts of the skin (feet, legs, base of the beak, eye margins and head). The vesicle is a result of the separation of the surface layer of the skin with the formation of pockets of watery fluid rich in multiplying virus. The vesicles become nodules as they increase in size, coalesce and burst. Lymph from the cells congeals and scabs are formed. The surface of the nodules become rough and dry and the color changes to dark brown or black. The size and number of nodules present depends on the stage and severity of the infection. Bacteria may gain access causing secondary infection and resulting in a purulent discharge (pus) and necrosis. Eventually, the scab falls off and a scar forms at the site. It takes 2 to 4 weeks for complete healing of the affected areas on the skin providing the lesions aren't too extensive thereby preventing the bird from feeding.

DNR

Also according to several websites there's no treatments and it's highly contagious which is pretty scary if that's what he has! Although from the description it seems a bit unlikely cause his are already dry and the color is more grey rather than dark brown/black as they mention:

The only suggested "treatment" is this:

These treatments consist of removing skin lesions and utilizing sodium bicarbonate or Lugol's solution of iodine washes, removing the diphtheritic membrane from the mouth and throat and swabbing the area with Lugol's solution of iodine, bathing the eyes with a 1-2% saline solution, and raising the environmental temperature. In all cases, providing assistance for recovery may spread the infection to other parts of the skin or to other birds.

DNR

I really hope he doesn't have the pox virus

rottielover · Post by **rottielover** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:43 pm

Try as I might, I just can't seem to get the picture cleared up enough to see it clearly.

I'm not sure what's going on with those feet.

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:53 pm

Yeah I know it's really hard to notice the problem, especially since it looks more like dirt stuck on his feet however I inspected him up close and it was definitely growth.

I tried to take more pictures that I hope are clearer, I don't have a micro lens on hand or else I could've taken better shots.

In the last shot you can see that it's growing from the bottom side. I looked up scaly mites and they don't look like that, the pox apparantly look more wet and when they're dry they turn black or dark brown, that doesn't apply to what he has either.

Is it possible that this is some sort of abnormality?

Overall though, his health is getting slowly better, here's two pictures and you can clearly see that he doesn't look like a finch on the verge of death anymore the way he did in the last picture of him posted two days ago:

EmilyHurd · Post by **EmilyHurd** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:23 am

He's a beautiful finch! I wish Crystal posted still b/c she knows a lot about avian problems like that... she never really posts anymore. I have no idea what it could be.. maybe you could do some research at a library?

You def. cannot see anything from far away!

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:46 pm

JUST when I thought things are looking better, today two of my healthier birds were clicking very loud that I was able to hear it while music is on.

SCATT should be here within the next few days, should I start treating them immediately when I get it? Considering their last S76 treatment ended about a week ago, would that be too stressful?

He's a beautiful finch! I wish Crystal posted still b/c she knows a lot about avian problems like that... she never really posts anymore. I have no idea what it could be.. maybe you could do some research at a library?

Thanks a lot Emily, I really love how he looks too but it's just frustrating when they're constantly sick - you know that already of course as you experienced their difficulty.

Will try to check and see if I find anything, I placed a sandy perch in his hospital cage for now, maybe that'll help cause the stuff on his feet is dry and there's no signs of inflammation so far.

EmilyHurd · Post by **EmilyHurd** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:59 am

You can treat with SCATT right away. You need to get right on their "skin" though. Get past all their feathers and drop one drop preferably on the back of their neck. You can also do two drops if you want. I try to treat mine at least every two months or so as a preventative.

rottielover · Post by **rottielover** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:26 pm

Sorry for the delay. We're having about 7 or 8 inches of snow dropped on our heads right now, and my internet has been going on and off for the last couple of days.

I'll try to keep up with the thread as much as possible.

fairestfinches · Post by **fairestfinches** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:36 am

1. Personally, I would stop using the NV powder. I know many gould breeders who have lost hundreds of birds from using Dr. Marshall's products. We tried the program and came close to losing our goulds too. Fortunately, we just ended up with a less than optimally successful breeding season.

2. If you're still hearing clicking after completing the S76 treatment, then all the birds need to be treated with Iverlux or Scatt as quickly as possible. The best way to apply either product to the skin is a drop under the wing -- in the "armpit" area.

3. It's quite possible that the one black headed gould has a secondary infection. You mentioned that he did show improvement on the Amoxitex. But, you also mentioned you noticed red stained poop and whole seed in the droppings. I noted before that his behavior sounded like some of the symptoms for a bird infected with AGY. The only treatment that has had any decent success rate for AGY is Amphotericin-B.

However, the symptoms your bird has been exhibiting also could indicate Giardia, Trich, or Cochlosoma. All of which can be successfully treated with Ronidazole.

4. As for what is going on with the gould's feet, it could be viral or fungal in nature. I have no idea what it could be, though. But, I would leave the nodules alone. If it's contagious, a sure fire way to spread it to the other birds is via an open sore.

Michele

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:15 pm

EmilyHurd wrote:You can treat with SCATT right away. You need to get right on their "skin" though. Get past all their feathers and drop one drop preferably on the back of their neck. You can also do two drops if you want. I try to treat mine at least every two months or so as a preventative.

Alright, will use SCATT the moment it gets here, luckily none of the clicking birds are stressed, they're still active and doing fine except for the clicking part. Hopefully they remain that way until I receive the medicine.

fairestfinches wrote:Personally, I would stop using the NV powder. I know many gould breeders who have lost hundreds of birds from using Dr. Marshall's products. We tried the program and came close to losing our goulds too. Fortunately, we just ended up with a less than optimally successful breeding season.

Fairestfinches, your response kinda freaked me out to be honest. I recently ordered all of Marshall's products for about a $100 and I wrote a thread in the "Diet and Nutrition" asking for more feedback on it, I'd truly appreciate it if you can elaborate more on why you think it's bad?

The NV powder helped me when the birds were stressed and fluffed, are we not supposed to provide electrolytes to boost their energy when they're not alright? I'd really like to know more cause I always depend on that stuff.

fairestfinches wrote:If you're still hearing clicking after completing the S76 treatment, then all the birds need to be treated with Iverlux or Scatt as quickly as possible. The best way to apply either product to the skin is a drop under the wing -- in the "armpit" area.

Will do, I hope it gets here very soon, I was told it's taking longer cause of the holiday season.

fairestfinches wrote:It's quite possible that the one black headed gould has a secondary infection. You mentioned that he did show improvement on the Amoxitex. But, you also mentioned you noticed red stained poop and whole seed in the droppings. I noted before that his behavior sounded like some of the symptoms for a bird infected with AGY. The only treatment that has had any decent success rate for AGY is Amphotericin-B.

I just completed a treatment using a Tetracycline/Erythromycin anti-biotic and it did help him a lot. There's no longer blood in his stool nor seeds. During the day he acts healthy and this morning was enjoying a bath in his drinking water which I take as a good sign but then at night he does look more tired (droopy wings), but overall the improvement is evident.

fairestfinches wrote:However, the symptoms your bird has been exhibiting also could indicate Giardia, Trich, or Cochlosoma. All of which can be successfully treated with Ronidazole.

I treated him with Ronex but that was before treating with S76, I'm not sure if retreating would be a good idea?

rottielover wrote:We're having about 7 or 8 inches of snow dropped on our heads right now, and my internet has been going on and off for the last couple of days.

I'm sorry to hear that Rottie, you've been a great help though and things are far better these days (aside from the annoying reappearance of the mites). Hope things sort out for you soon