Eggs yes no, Millet yes no, greens yes no CONFUSED

[Derk]

Not surprisingly, you have received a lot of very good information. Most of these people have many more years of experience than I but I have few bits of information that may help.

Cuttlebone - it is my understanding that at some point in time someone discovered that cuttle bone can contain a lot of bacteria. I have NOT read the article for myself, but I think it may have been shown to me. Regardless, there are better sources of calcium. Many vegs are calcium rich. Pellets/granules are hoped to be balanced in vitamins and minerals including calcium. Eggs and shells are another source. There are also bird supplements containing calcium.

Regarding feeding chicken/turkey/any meat to birds, including parrots. This is very controversial including in the parrot community. There are some diseases, ie)salmonella that could infect a bird if the meat is not cooked properly. This is also how many people get salmonella. Pet birds, especially parrots, will often 'steal' food from there owners plates or hands. Some parrot people share everything with their birds believing everything in moderation is ok. This is not always correct. There are some deadly foods - non recommended on this site.

I think what has to be remembered is what the birds are being used for - pets, breeding, show etc. These birds will experience different levels of stress and therefore have different requirements.

You also need to consider how many birds are being kept together, what they are, and how expensive they are to replace, if they are your source of income, how attached you to them, and where any new birds are coming from, how well do you know the person, how do they care for their birds etc, do they take them to bird marts and bird shows, do they requarantine them. This is likely going to affect your risk tolerance. If I had birds with 100's of dollars individually or as a whole, birds that I am emotionally attached to, rare birds etc, I am likely going to quarantine longer and may be giving more preventative medication. If I had a couple zebra finches and a friend who had some finches offered my a couple because after several years of no health problems she was just tired of having them or whatever, I may be willing to wait a day or two.

Quarantining also depends on a persons comfort level with recognizing illness in birds, and this comes with experience and also sometimes making mistakes that they learn from.

Also keep in mind that bird keeping is relatively new in North America versus what has been taking place in Europe. Bird - Avian - medicine is in its infancy. That includes bird nutrition. There is so much we do not know and even when we do learn something it takes a while to figure out how best to apply that knowledge and then for the message to breeders and hobbiest, and not forget even to the vet. Not all vets are interested in birds but few are likley going to actually saw don't come here go to so and so although some of those vets do exist. If you can find a certified avian vet that is likely your best resource. Canada unfortunately does not certify their avian vets, however some vets do specialize.

With regards to pellets and granules. Many people I have talked to have found the Lefaber's granules are more readily accepting to finches. That has been my experience. I am going to see if I can get them to try other pellets now even though I believe Lefabers is a good food. I am just experimenting.

Pellets/granules are also a relatively new introduction. Some birds do not seem to do well with them. Some birds do well on some brands but not others. At one point, vets thought 100% pellets was the correct way to go. That then decreased to about 80%. Some vets now say 60% or 50/50.

Many people felt this was the 'lazy man's way.' I don't agree. I think pellets have their place for many reasons but I will not get into that here. Regardless, some experience people started trying to develop diets that were more natural. You have likely come across lots of information regarding 'mash' and 'chop.'

And then of course, along comes the internet. A wonderful thing, but unfortunately, it can be very difficult to figure out the experience, and education of many of the authors. A very impressive and professional website can be created by a pre-teen with almost no experience.

So what do you do? You read a lot, and as most people have said, you try what makes sense and see what works for you. What I do find very helpful is to come here and do searches and read others stories. I also listen to those who have had a lot of experience. I also listen to those who obviously care a lot about their birds, who care about where they are going, and how they going to be cared for. I would listen to those who successfully raise young birds and those who have the same bird for many years. You can do a lot of the wrong things to a bird and have it live for a couple years and not know it if everything is getting sold or traded. But if someone has a bunch of finches that are approaching double digits or in their teens, they are obviously doing something right.

And I don't think I included it above, but different species of finches simply have different requirements. Exercise and cage size also play a huge roll. If the bird has lots of room to fly it will need more calories and can eat more millet and egg food etc.

Well it seems I said much more than I planned. And I am sorry but I am too tired to proof read and edit. I apologize in advance and hope what I wrote is understandable. And that brings up another point, what is and is not said also depends on a person's time. There are so many details and factors that one can not possibly cover all the angles. And those details and factors, are often what leads to what may appear as contradictory information.

Hmm... one last comment. Once in a while I have come across the same point that I believe is very true:

To keep birds healthy you need to keep their environment, food, and water clean. No matter what size cage you have, no matter what you feed, if everything is covered in droppings, bacteria and fungus will grow and you will have birds with very short unhappy lives. You may also end up getting yourself sick as well.

[Derk]

Well, I have had some sleep and I just reread what I wrote. If I could I would obviously change the typing errors but I can no longer edit the post.

I would like to clarify one comment:

If you can find a certified avian vet that is likely your best resource

A certified avian vet should be much more knowledgeable than a 'regular' vet. It is helpful to find out how much experience the vet - avian and/or regular - has had owning/raising birds personally. A vet that has not owned a bird or very many varieties may have a lot of information about disease/illness and medications but not day to day care. My understanding is that vets do not necessarily learn about a lot of avian nutrition at university. Some/or many may rely on the pet food manufacturers for their information. Some believe this is why pellets were pushed so hard. Others believe it is because many vets believe they are better than an all seed diet. From what I have read this may be true for the average pet bird, but not necessarily for the more advance fincher who is willing to spend more time caring for and learning about birds, behaviour, nutrition, environment etc. From what I have read, this may especially be true with regards to breeding. It seems that some have experienced fewer babies from birds just on pellets. To me this makes a lot of sense. Just as with people, prepared foods seem to have a few too many additives and fillers and not enough of the vital nutrients we are just beginning to learn about. These are the phytonutrients etc that are being discovered in fruits and especially vegetables. These nutrients are thought to be damaged and/or destroyed by the processes that are required to produce pellets/granules. This is why the pellet pendulum is swinging back to a lower percentage. Some very experienced parrot breeders and behaviourists are thinking maybe it should be 30%. I think there is likely a range that works and it depends on the individual bird and species and all the others factors previously listed as well as your
schedule.

Because of the above, is why I would also listen carefully to what successful finch breeders and enthusiasts have to say. It is also why there is some discrepancy between vets and the finchers.

A few other points: (can you believe it )

from - http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/betacarotene.html

Tests have shown that three percent of the total beta-carotene content is released from raw carrots when consumed in raw pieces. When homogenized (pulped) 21% was released. Cooking the pulp increased the accessibility to 27%. Addition of cooking oil to the cooked pulp further increased the released amount to 39%. (European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2002) 56, 425–430- Estimation of carotenoid accessibility from carrots determined by an in vitro digestion method, Hedren et al)


* Addition of cooking oil to the cooked pulp further increased the released amount to 39% - I would not use the cooking oil if feeding to birds.

finally - the fruits we buy in the grocery store are VERY different from the fruits a bird has access to in the wild. Many of 'our' fruits have been altered to be higher in sugar - especially apples. The sweeter apples are much more palatable to people and birds. Think candy, chocolate, pop. It is very unfortunate that we are messing up the healthy food now as well. There are many on-line sources that show fruit sugar percentages.

http://www.sugarstacks.com/fruits.htm
http://greatist.com/health/sugar-wise-how-fruits-stack
http://www.sparkpeople.com/blog/blog.as ... rite_fruit
http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/fruits- ... -1543.html
http://www.thefruitpages.com/contents.shtml

Note: yes, the gram content of sugar does vary somewhat. This is because the serving size is not the same in all the articles. The exact type or orange, apple etc is not standardized nor is the time it was picked, where it was grown, or in what conditions, as well as how long and how it has been stored. What is important to notice is that BERRIES are consistently lower in sugar and these are what birds normally have access to in the wild where they originate. Note, berries are also only available at certain times of the year. It is for this reason I would not supply fruit every day, or if I did, it would be berries on different days and not apples and bananas.

Just as with people, it is thought that we should be feeding a much larger variety of leafy greens. Here again you need to be careful because you need to limit those greens with oxolates. Bird sites are aware of this and identify these foods as not safe even if they do not explain why. Before feeding a new food, I would always check several sites to ensure they are safe to feed to your birds.

Wow...what a rant...

[flymouse]

Thanks everyone I wrote down in my notes what you said.

We have a PetSmart and a local pet store. I tend to order most things on line lately.

I did stupidly order a big toy for them since I have a huge avairy. Stupid me. They don't play on them. When I ordered it I read SMALL playground. Well if this is small I really hate to see large. So now I have to figure out what to do with it.

I paid $14 plus shipping. Is there anywhere on line here to sell bird items >??