Bloody Diarrhea in Gouldian-- Update 4/1 w/ Video

[lovemyfinch]

Thanks Candace. Correction made.

[dfcauley]

That is because we all love the birds and it's what friends do!!!

[Domenic]

Thank you so much everyone for all the kind offers. Made me teary eyed.

Do you have any electrolytes to give him? Something like Thrive or Vitalize?

The only bad thing about those is that they are full of sugar - which in my opinion can create yeast.

Do you have any probiotics on hand?

At the moment the only med that I have left is S76, which clearly isn't of any help here. With my small flock I've always procrastinated in getting new meds thinking they would never get a serious illness...

Misty, what does TMS stand for? Trimethraprim Sulfa?

Kristen responded again, here's what she said:

Okay...this is my train of thought...he is eating - you see him eating everything you give him - so if he has lost weight and continues to do so, that means he is not able to absorb the nutrients. Issues that involve that again are worms, protozoa, and coccidia and some bacterial issues. Occasionally yeast will cause an inability to absorb, but yeast doesn't typically get going unless the bird has been given antibiotics or his gut flora is compromised. Antibiotics kill the good with the bad and can allow yeast to take hold. (I realize you said they haven't had any other meds...just talking out loud here!).

Laraine could very well be right. She does know her stuff! Coccidia can cause weight loss - but coccidia doesn't usually just show up in a bird unless there is some other issue FIRST. It is a "lowered immune system" response and usually only gets going if the bird is suppressed from something else. Doesn't mean it can't happen...I just don't think that is quite it - or not coccidia alone. He may have a couple of things going on at the same time that he picked up from the new bird! Out of control coccidia can also cause blood in the droppings...I just don't get the feeling that this is what is wrong. Instinct - and I don't know how to explain how my intinct works - it's just there for me to follow!

I'm guessing you are right and the hen probably brought something "new" in - something she is or was immune to (because she built up immunity to that particular strain in her own aviary), but that once placed in with the other birds picked up a slightly different strain of whatever it is which then forced all of the birds who got ill to try and fight the new bug. Does that make sense to you?

I still think it is either a worm or protozoal issue, but without taking the bird in hand and/or checking the droppings myself, I can't be certain!

The Ronex or Ronivet is very safe and would not cause any issues that would make matters worse. The wormer wouldn't hurt either unless he has a ton of worms in his system at which point killing the worms could cause an obstruction that COULD make matters worse and potentially kill the bird. THAT is something the hen could have brought with her, but birds don't typically "recover" without treatment from worms. Since the other birds seem to have recovered, I'd have to say we can almost rule out the worms for now. (but you should still worm them quarterly just to be safe!)

My concern is knowing whether or not he actually has protozoa or worms - I just hate to medicate without knowing what I'm treating or recommending something without actually seeing the bird & droppings.

Ahhh, I did not mean to suggest your little man has a twirling issue. I did not see any signs of twirling in your vid - "stargazing", which is not the same as twirling, is often seen in birds who have been placed in a smaller cage. They are literally staring at the ceiling because it is so much closer! If it is indeed "stargazing", it is not usually an illness, but a temporary thing he'll do until he gets used to the cage. Kind of like you ducking your head to pass through a low door...you kind of duck and look so you don't hit your head! Yes? Since you haven't seen him do too much more of that particular motion, I'm guessing it was just a reaction to the smaller hospital cage.

I would get the Ronex in him - she can have it too - it's very safe. 5-7 days - but watch him. If he seems to be responding, do the full 7. If you don't see any response at all after about 3 days, pull the Ronex. You should see almost instant results if it is protozoa. Something to keep in mind - if you have Ronex, you can give it up to 5x the normal strength for the first 3 days. BUT, if you are using Ronivet, check the label to see if it is the 6% or 12%. You can safely up the 6%, but not the 12%.

When you say the droppings are normal, what do they look like? Can you send a pic without stressing the birds too much?

I think I'm going to need Ronivet. With this sickness I think I'm going to have to narrow it down by treating with the least harmful medicine first (Ronivet). If that does not work, I may try treating for Cocci (I'm scared of that one) or worms.

Can I have opinions on this?

EDIT!
I uploaded a new video where you can clearly see the head movements Judah makes. Look around the 1:10 mark to see it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtOhIx7He2o

I also took a pic of Judah's droppings. There is a small chance the light one is from the female, but all are at most a day old and were directly under Judah's favorite spot to perch in the hospital cage.

[MLaRue]

I would treat him with the Ronivet and the TMS (yes you had that right).

I might even follow up with a wormer to be safe.

We need to get meds in him ASAP - before he gets any worse. I agree with Kristen I think it was something there in the background all along and adding the hen
brought it to the front perhaps due to the stress of having a hen to breed with even if it was for a day.
I also would treat the hen with Ronivet and a wormer to be safe.

[MLaRue]

I would also clean the bottom of the sick cage daily to be certain he doesn't have access to those poops.

[MLaRue]

One more thing (sorry) those poops are NOT normal looking - they are too colorful, too wet, to yuck. If his poops have looked this all along
then he has been sick for some time.

[Domenic]

In answer to your question Misty his poop has not looked like that before this sickness. I quarantined him for a month before putting him in my flock so I had a close eye on his droppings. Can I treat him with Ronivet and TMS at the same time Misty?

Also, I sent you a PM.

[MLaRue]

Yes, you can use them at the same time. But I would treat them individually to
isolate the problem.

[Domenic]

Judah has blood in his diarrhea again. He just passed a brown stool though, no blood. It seems to come and go.

[cindy]

Domenic, what might be happening is there may be some type of irritation in the tract due to what ever is wrong. As he passes stool it may break a tiny blood vessel cause it to bleed a little then clot and stop for a bit until something he passes later disturbs it again breaks the clot causing it to bleed some.

I saw this in my dogs when she was ill. Not seeing the blood gives you false hope that what ever caused the problem is or has gone away, then you see the blood again then you realize it hasn't.

[Domenic]

Very insightful cindy, I believe you are right. I looked again and the poop has dried very dark, almost black. Perhaps it has been bloody the entire time, I just haven't been able to tell.

[cindy]

Domenic, back when our dog was ill I asked my father (immunologist/microbiologist, med background) He told me why you sometimes see blood and sometimes you don't. Mostly it is due to the imflammation and the vessle tearing, clotting and tearing again.

Once you get you little guy better the tract should calm down and it will heal. When are you starting treatment? Hope all turns out well for your gouldians.

[Domenic]

I'm getting some Pedialyte today and hopefully that will keep him alive until the meds get here in 2 days. Kristen has been the biggest help and has offered to do a fecal smear and is sending me a care package for Judah. There's no way I can ever repay her for her generosity and help. If Judah survives for 2 more days, I will begin treatment for Protozoa, then worms, and then coccidiosis.

At this point in time it's up to God to keep him alive, there's not much I can do for him without the meds.

[MLaRue]

I'm getting some Pedialyte today and hopefully that will keep him alive until the meds get here in 2 days. Kristen has been the biggest help and has offered to do a fecal smear and is sending me a care package for Judah. There's no way I can ever repay her for her generosity and help. If Judah survives for 2 more days, I will begin treatment for Protozoa, then worms, and then coccidiosis.

At this point in time it's up to God to keep him alive, there's not much I can do for him without the meds.

Then I guess you will be getting all the same stuff from me in two days that I just sent as well!

[Domenic]

Misty, I wrote that post before I received your PM. I am very appreciative of the generosity you've shown me and I'm sure Judah will appreciative of it too if he pulls through this. Kristen told me she had some things that were going to expire soon and offered to send them to me so I said yes. If I had known you were sending the meds today I would have told her she didn't have to send me anything, but you didn't respond to my PM last night and I was worried you didn't receive it or were very busy. I didn't want to burden you and ask you again if you were sending the meds today, so I just told Kristen yes. Judah has so little time left, I didn't want to take the risk and delay longer in telling her no.

It's hard to tell emotion from words on a screen but I sincerely hope you don't feel taken advantage of, that was certainly not my intention. I do hope you realize just how appreciative I am.