In regards to promotion and censoring of products

[Crystal]

Hello fellow finch fanatics :0)

You by now have no doubt seen the new & improved forum rules. We came up with them to satisfy the needs of this forum and its members. And I do mean we, as in all of us. Not just "we," the moderator team, either! A lot of the input you guys gave in the advertising poll/thread, in PMs, and in your replies was quite helpful and had a direct impact on the revisions. (So give yourselves a round of applause )

And that brings me to what I wanted to clarify about promotion/endorsement of products and the subject of censorship...

Some of you may have wondered if there are certain products that are okay or not okay to discuss on this forum, and if so, how that determination is made, and whether or not it is "fair." We of the moderating team have actually voiced the same concerns--have had this and similar topics under scrutinizing debate--and we hope you'll be happy to learn that we have made adjustments to how we are handling these types of issues as we move forward.

We have decided that with the exception of those products deemed to be harmful, irrelevant (i.e. not bird-related), or illegal, we leave it up to the individual member (aka you) to decide what products you'd like to discuss on this board. However, we have also modified our policies on product promotion as covered by the new forum rules on advertising in order to find a balance between sharing information on products and not causing the forum to feel "overrun with advertisement or promotion."

So instead of censoring mention of bird-appropriate product(s), we have decided to attack the real issue that seems to be at heart: excessive marketing behavior, especially where said marketing carries a financial or "rewards-based" incentive for the person presenting the information, which may create a "conflict of interest."

Hence the change in the forum rules in regards to advertising, as stated in the updated Terms of Service:

!

Message from: Crystal

Advertising and Product Promotion Only those advertisements related to birds or bird-related wares (bird cages, bird foods, and the like) will be permitted, and only in following designated areas, which may also have additional regulations for you to be considerate of: "Marketplace" forum Business Listings can be added to the Avian Business Listings subforum of the Resources forum. Refer to the posted guidelines in that subforum when creating a listing. You can also include a link to your own commercial website in your profile and signature, as long as that website meets the other requirements set forth in these Terms (family friendly, not spam, etc.). Products may be mentioned in the natural progression of discussion as for educational purposes (i.e. for the hobby keeper's discussions of bird-related issues, moving to potential solutions which may include subsequent suggestions of products [including where to buy those products*] to implement those solutions). Excessive marketing or product pushing is not permitted in non-designated areas, however; if the moderator team feels that promotion is excessive within a post, the post may be edited or deleted and the User warned. *Any individual with a vested commercial interest or rewards-based incentive in the sales or promotion of a product may only provide a direct link in their post to the website where said product(s) is/are sold IF a non-affiliated party requests such information from them first. Conversations between an interested party and the individual marketing the goods may also take place via PM as long as the PM does not take the form of an unwanted solicitation. Any user may write an article (posted as a new thread) that formally reviews or otherwise showcases a product or product line for educational purposes as long as the following conditions are met: The title of the thread must start with the phrase "PRODUCT SPOTLIGHT:" The author must truthfully diclose his/her affiliation with the product being reviewed/showcased at the very beginning of the article/post; i.e. make a statement such as: "I sell this product," "I am sponsored by this product," "I get discounts if I help promote this product," or "No affiliation, I just want to share my experiences with this product" for example. Authors must follow the same rules above (#4, #5) when it comes to posting links to where the product(s) being reviewed/showcased can be purcahsed. Beyond that, no attempt should be made to market, advertise, solicit, sponsor, or promote any product, website, etc. for the purpose of commercial gain for yourself or anyone you are affiliated with.

We do not wish to limit valid discussion of bird-related products by our members. We only wish to curtail the problem behavior of marketing or "product-pushing." We leave it up to each individual to decide if he or she wants to purchase or avoid purchase of a given product. After all, it is not the place of the forum to force a boycott like that (or unwanted promotion) on anyone. Hence our amended position on this issue.

So we ask you kindly to help us help you in keeping the forum enjoyable & true to its mission statement and terms of service. If you spot a post that you feel borders on excessive promotion, please flag it for moderator review using the anonymous report system (by clicking the little red exclamation mark at the bottom right hand corner of the post). And as always, remember to remain ever vigilant in your consideration of others as you post & share--whether that's about a product or anything else. :0)

I hope that this post clarifies our stance on this and similar issues as we continue to make adjustments where needed to improve our member's experience on this forum. Please let any of us know if you have any further questions/concerns. Also, if there's anything you can think of that we can do differently or better to make your experience here even better, please let us know!

Thanks for reading! :0)

[debbie276]

Once again a very fair conclusion, thank you.

[finchmix22]

Sounds like a balanced approach. Thanks for the update.

[DanteD716]

I have no other way to word it other than what Debbie and Deborah have!

[nixity]

I don't understand this part:

Products may be mentioned in the natural progression of discussion as for educational purposes by those Users who do not have a vested commercial interest in the sales of that product (i.e. for the hobby breeder's discussions of bird-related issues, moving to potential solutions which may include subsequent suggestions of products [including where to buy those products] to implement those solutions).

So does this mean if someone has posted a thread asking advice on what to feed their Gouldians, I can't say "I have been using the Gouldian Pro mixes for over 3 years now and swear by them" simply because I happen to sell them? Even though I also sell my own custom seed blends?

Isn't that censoring me because it prevents me from being able to answer the question at all since I'm "vested" in the product?

[nixity]

Additionally -

We only wish to curtail the problem behavior of marketing or "product-pushing."

Does this mean that I'll stop seeing all the "non-vested" people who favor certain individuals (and thus always refer people to only one site), instead encourage the user to simply refer to the “Members Avian & Supply Websites” thread where they can make the decision of where they shop based on the thread?

It's for the user to decide, but if someone posts a link, which always happens, generally that user buys from that link.
In all fairness, when I have "marketed" products - I have ALWAYS listed other websites which offer the same products because shipping plays a huge role in prices.

But if you're going to censor the "vested" individual, then it's only fair to censor the "non-vested" ones from showing favoritism, as well.

[lovemyfinch]

What we are trying to avoid here is having a group of individuals PUSHING products...eg mentioning a specific product every post and even adding colours to make sure that it is noticed.

[Crystal]

Tiffany, I would also like to permit even those members who do happen to have products for sale the ability to discuss those products in a valid/educational/helpful way just as we have other members do so. Can you think of a way to reword the policy on advertising to accommodate this wish and yet prevent unwanted (excessive, uninvited, etc.) marketing?

[nelloyello11]

In my opinion, it would be an injustice to this wonderful forum, to not allow those members who sell products to be able to comment on, recommend, and educate on these products. They shouldn't be barred from sharing their experience and knowledge just because they also sell a certain product. I expect that members who sell these products have experience with them, can recommend them, and understand their benefits and possible dangers. I want their opinions, too.
Maybe the guidelines could be changed to allow for recommendations, but without unsolicited marketing or blatant promotion of their own websites.
So, a member could jump in on a conversation to give advice (which may include product suggestions), but cannot directly point to their website, unless another member asks where the product can be purchased. Or something to that effect?

[Crystal]

nelloyello11 ,

That is all very true. I want to find a way to allow all of those valid forms of discussion to take place, even by vendors. I think you are on to something with what you have proposed. The moderating team is in discussion on tweaking the wording and we should hopefully have an amended policy on advertising soon to better suit the needs of this forum :0)

[finchmix22]

One professional standard of conduct that is usually accepted is to make referrals to three different sources, so the individual can check them out and pick the one which suits their needs the best.
For example, there are several people who sell Morning Bird products, but no one has pushed people to buy from them in the past. Most of us discuss the use of those supplements and meds, in the context of helping a sick finch.

Other products that are not for treating or preventing illness in finches, have more potential to be marketed, especially if people are showing/competing with their finches. A fair approach might be that vendors can list their website and product in an advertising section.

The products related to treating and preventing illness should not be censored, as we never know what may help a particular finch/bird in a unique situation.

Products that are a luxury type item or not related to the treatment of a sick finch, may need more guidelines. However, if those people have a place to advertise and promote their product, they won't need to promote the product within posts.

Maybe the rules could be related to how we discuss a product, instead of whether or not we mention a name of a product. For example, if person A is discussing scaly face and person B recommends Product C, as the product helped their finch, that would be reasonable. Yet, if person A is discussing how to create a shine in feathers, for show, possibly, and person B recommends Product D, which they sell and they make more than one post/point of how and why that person A should try the product D, they are pushing/marketing the product.

I'm not sure if there is a perfect and always a fair way to address this issue, but finding some middle ground is probably best.

[Crystal]

Just wanted to update everyone that after further discussion, we have amended the forum rules on advertising to permit valid discussion of products even by vendors, but still prohibit excessive marketing. :0)

The starting thread has been edited to reflect the new rules, which can also be read in the updated Terms of Service.

You may also notice a new subforum of the Resources forum called "Avian Business Listings." This will be the place for vendor & vendor-affiliate members to post their "business cards" for other members to use as a resource for locating avian supplies. It is meant to replace the "Member's Avian & Supply Websites" thread in the Resources forum.

We have also included in the Terms of Service instructions for how to post an article reviewing or showcasing a product.

Let us know if you have any questions about these changes! :0)