Egg Binding Prevention? What am I doing wrong?

[seespotbitejane]

I have a zebra finch who became egg bound a couple days ago. I don't know how old she is but I think she's pretty physically mature. I've had her 4 months and she had her adult markings when I got her.

She laid 2 eggs about a week ago without a problem. There wasn't a good nesting place in the cage because I wasn't planning on breeding them.

She seemed distressed when the eggs she laid last week ended up falling on the floor and tried to make a nest under the water dish. They have a nest that is basically a big cardboard tube with straw and the inside is flat and slopes down a little, so while they can sit in it happily, the eggs rolled out. So I got them a real nest and a new toy and a different food dish and also thoroughly cleaned and rearranged the cage while I was at it.

They get a finch food mix with seeds and pellets that does have an expiration date (which isn't for 6 months), they have a cuttlebone, and they get a daily egg/eggshell/vegetable mash. I also add Avitron vitamin supplement to their water. It doesn't have an expiration date but I know I've had it for over a year. I don't know if it goes off or stops working or how long that takes.

So she was egg bound and I tried the oil massage and the soak in warm water and nothing was working. The bird guy at the pet store suggested holding her over steam and I found a youtube video of somebody helping an egg bound parrot that way. I tried that very carefully and we got the egg out with no breaks. This one was significantly larger than the earlier 2 she laid. She was fine for a couple days after that, but today she is puffed up again.

Bird guy at the petstore said they probably need a full spectrum light to make full use of the vitamins and calcium I'm trying to give them? About every finch website I've looked at recommends Calciboost but I live in a small town and neither of the 2 pet stores here carries it. I'll happily order it online but it'll have to wait till payday next week and she's having trouble right now.

Is this still likely a calcium deficiency with the diet they've got? I've also read egg binding can be stress induced? Did I maybe stress her too much when I rearranged the cage sort of mid clutch? A combination? What do I need to change? I want to prevent this from happening again.

[Sally]

I would think the steam method could cause burns on the finch, unless you are very careful. What I do with an eggbound hen is give her a drop or two of liquid calcium directly to the side of the beak, put her in a hospital or small cage with a heat lamp directed at one end, and then you can drape a wet (not dripping) towel over one end of the cage and away from the heat lamp to provide humidity. Calciboost and Calcium Plus are normally only available online, but if you can find human grade liquid calcium at a drugstore, you can use that in an emergency. Eggshells, oystershell grit, cuttlebone are all good sources of calcium. You can supply the vitamin D3 that is needed for the bird to utilize the calcium by supplying a vitamin supplement with D3. You should be able to find that at a pet shop.

This is from the Finch Information Center:

"Egg binding: Place the hen in a heated (90-95F) hospital cage with added humidity, administer calcium gluconate (neocalglucon) orally (1 drop into her mouth), provide egg food (boiled egg crushed shell and all), lubricate vent with a small amount of KY jelly and call your vet."

http://www.finchinfo.com/health/first_aid.php

And welcome to the forum, though it is not under the best of circumstances. There is lots of good reading at the Finch Information Center, linked at left, and the members are always happy to answer questions. If you put your general location in your profile, it makes it easier to answer locale-specific questions later on.

[debbie276]

I don't really have anything more to add to what Sally said, just wanted to say welcome to the forum.
Best wishes, hope all works out well for your little one.

[cindy]

I agree about the steam, it gets to hot, it can burn the flesh.

If you are giving pellets (what brand?) then I personally would remove the vitamins from the water, water soluble vitamins added to water is an unreliable way to deliver vitamins plus it can go bad in the water.

As suggested the liquid calcium to the beak and a heat lamp works best. You can add the liquid calcium to the water and add shaved cuttlebone over their food prior to breeding and during egg laying.
Some hens are prone to egg binding more than others.

[David]

I agreed to what Sally and Cindy said, which very detailed info. For me, I owned zebra finches for few years. I ALWAYS gave my female finches who laid eggs all the time by gave them Oyster shell grit like Sally said. It works and no egg binding for the hens laying egg. They still laid eggs, even the growing up clutch of babies (even the young ones around 4months old) still laid eggs, 3 of them even piled up the egg to almost the top of nests I don't want them loose calcium so fed them frequently, if lay daily I fed them once every 2-3days. Otherwise once a week is enough, in your case maybe you should feed it everyday for a week and see what happen, since she was egg binding not good.
Also you don't have to wait for shipping time and get pay to buy online for oyster shell or other things you mentioned above. The 2nd option is you can find it at your home! If you have eggs in your fridge that has not expire yet? If yes, then you can use it. Either boiled it 15-20min and crushed the eggshell with yolk (better than white) when it was cooling feed it for your finch. Or you can try crack the egg put white and yolk in a bowl, and just use the "eggshell" by microwave it 2min, because avoid salmonella. Crushed the eggshell with a knife(sometime I squeeze it little by little with my fingers because easy to break into pieces). I want to help you with everything I know. My finches love the eggshell every time I fed them.

Good luck and keep us posted.

David

[seespotbitejane]

Thanks for your replies everybody. I will nix the vitamin supplement. On my way home from work I checked the pharmacy for a liquid calcium for people but they looked at me like I was crazy.

Got home and poor Pepper (the bird in question) is clearly miserable and her vent is swollen but it's not an egg. My best guess is that I probably did burn her with the steam despite my best efforts not to. It doesn't look red though so that's something?

Right now she's got a heat lamp which she's sitting as close to as possible and a damp towel. I'm afraid that's about the best I can do for humidity. My bathroom doesn't have a shower or I'd put her in there and let it run.

Anything else I can do to make her more comfortable?

Oh, and the food they're on is Kaytee Forti-diet, the finch formula. Plus mixed vegetables, egg and crushed eggshell that I change out every morning.

Is a full spectrum lamp a good idea?

[debbie276]

Be sure to offer the entire hard boiled egg for the vitamin D to help with calcium absorption and all the vitamins, minerals and protein.
When you get a chance I would order liquid calcium so you have it on hand for emergencies.
best of luck, keep us posted

[cindy]

Now that the weather is cooling or getting chilly you also set up a small heat lamp near a perch for the hen to go to if you think she may have an issue with eggbinding. The warmth will help the muscles relax as well. If breeding/laying eggs and it is chilly the muscles may tense up and pushing the egg out can be difficult for hens prone to eggbinding. That and the extra D3 and calcium mentioned about helps greatly.

[seespotbitejane]

Thanks for all your help everybody. Pepper seems improved this morning. Mostly still fluffed up by the heat lamp, but she has been noisier and moving around for more than food and water. Also she has decided that the most expedient way to get to the bottom of the cage is to just drop, which I am a little concerned about. Should I move the dishes up higher? I usually keep them low so the seeds don't get thrown quite as far.

[debbie276]

It's actually good exercise for the finches to use all of the cage and fly side to side and top to bottom. I would leave the food right where it is. Very happy she seems better today, we're all pulling for her recovery.
good luck

[Finnie]

Adding vitamins to drinking water is a matter of opinion. Some breeders use them and some don't. I most definitely always use them for breeding birds.

This is an excellent choice, note the high level of Vit. D3. https://www.birdsupplynh.com/catalog/pr ... f418bc4698

And this is a good brand of liquid form:
https://www.birdsupplynh.com/catalog/pr ... f418bc4698

I has less D3, but still more than the worthless vitamin drops they sell in pet stores.

You can find calcium gluconate at farm supply stores like Tractor Supply, if there is one near you. But it may be in a huge bottle, and expensive. I remember looking at it and deciding to stick with what I order on line. I think that may be because I prefer my liquid calcium without sugar, because it's the sugar in it that makes it spoil quicker. (And because the sugar makes a sticky mess. I use the same water for their baths as I use in their drinkers.)

But the sugar has other benefits if you're administering it to the beak for emergency treatment.

One other thing, if the egg doesn't develop a proper shell, it can still get eggbound, and then it might be too soft to feel the egg. In that case I don't know if there is any way you can get it out, but it might resorb.

I would take the nest away, and hope that it triggers her to quit laying. If not, and she starts to lay somewhere in the cage, you can put some dummy eggs there to hopefully fool her into thinking her clutch is complete. You may have to remove any food cups she can sit in, or anything else she tries to use.

Good luck, I hope she will be OK.

[David]

I am glad pepper is better, hope she continues recover keep us posted.

[seespotbitejane]

Pepper seems to be pretty well recovered. Thanks everybody for your help. There's still a little swelling around her vent but she's back to her old behavior patterns, not fluffed up and crouched by the heat lamp anymore. Should I wait a little longer to put her back with Panda? He plucked a few feathers on her head when she was ill, but he is definitely not happy all alone in his cage. Should I give Pepper a few more days in hospital before I put them back together?

[David]

Oh so happy to hear that Pepper is doing well I suggest you should wait few more days to a week before put her back to Panda's cage. In case if she will get pluck by him again before fully recover. Good luck!