Girl Cage

Nagdabit · Post by **Nagdabit** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:02 pm

As mentioned in a previous post, we recently were able to purchase some Zebra hens. They finally came out of quarantine last week and we brought them into our bird room this week. Since we have a lot of couples to pair up we were waiting until all girls were in good shape before switching birds around. Which meant we needed to get three of our other girls out who have been badly plucked and let them recuperate.

We are out of space in our bird room so we had to put our three plucked girls in with our three "new" girls. Things have been relatively calm, but no sooner did we switch things around than our little black cheek hen (she was one of the "new" girls) started with the sick bird thing, fluffed up and lethargic. We assumed she was egg bound and fired up the infra red light as well as the humidifier. No improvement. We had given them a round of antibiotics (Doxycycl) before introducing them to everyone so just to be safe I started that again figuring it would help the plucked girls as well. Still no improvement. Finally I abandoned the Doxycycl and went with calcium in their water. Yea, eggs on the bottom of the cage.

But now we have all sorts of drama. Even though all three of the "new" girls had gotten along swimmingly before, the little lightback hen has decided she's unhappy with the black cheek for some odd reason. She makes this chattering motion with her beak even though no noise comes out and then will chase the black cheek all over the cage.

The birds we are watching for Sherry's boss are in another room, but they can still be heard by our guys, and I noticed last night that the girls were talking back and forth with our temporary residents. Could perhaps the babies in the visiting cage (they fledged just before he brought them over) be triggering their hormones and getting them in breeding mode? We've just had a onslaught of babies as well, six clutches in the past two months, but no one has reacted to any of those babies that we are aware of.

Also one of our plucked girls (Lyric), has been sitting on a perch, opening and closing her wings, almost like she's sitting on a clutch. She and her former mate just raised two girls, but they fledged well over a month ago. She's seems to do it while looking directly at us. Is she trying to tell us something?

Interesting side note, all three of our plucked girls were white, 2 CFW's an a white hen. Miss Lyric is going to her third mate now cause no matter who we pair her with, the male plucks the daylights out of her. And one of of our CFW's (Ash) plucks right back. Miss Ash and her mate had matching bald spots on their back.

So as you can see there is plenty of drama in our girl cage. But then isn't that generally the case whenever you get a bunch of hens together?

(sorry I apologize for the really bad joke, just couldn't resist) We'd appreciate any input that anyone has to lessen the turmoil until our plucked girls recuperate and we can finally put some couples together.

Nagdabit · Post by **Nagdabit** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:04 am

Still worried about our little black cheek hen. Even after the infra red light, humidifier and liquid calcium, she remains fluffed up and lethargic. On the positive side her appetite is good, although all I ever see her eat is spray millet. Could she have dietary issues? Would D3 help her at all? What would be the best way to administer it to make sure she's ingesting it?

ac12 · Post by **ac12** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:28 am

I would take the black cheek hen out to a small "hospital cage" where you can specifically take care of her. Maybe she is being picked on because she was "down" while trying to pass the eggs. BTW there "might" be more on the way, another reason to separate her.

nixity · Post by **nixity** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:22 am

I noticed you said you gave an antibiotic..

Did you follow that up with a probiotic or something to combat yeast?

Fluffed and lethargic after antibiotics can be a symptom of a possible yeast infection.
I typically don't treat quarantine birds with antibiotics unless I know something is wrong for this reason - if nothing is wrong, they can actually cause problems!

I am not sure if a probiotic would help at this point if it is a yeast infection - you would need a fungal med like Medistatin (aka Nystatin) - but who knows if that's really what this is or not.
Sure sounds similar, though, considering the circumstances.
They are an opportunistic beast that tends to flare up during periods of stress or after antibiotic treatment.

CandoAviary · Post by **CandoAviary** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:32 am

I agree that antibiotics should only be given as needed. They can cause other problems as Nixity pointed out but they can also loose their effect if administered too often. I find that sometimes just a little heat in a hospital cage is all that is necsasary. If that is not enough I give a product like Guardian Angel to boost their own immune systems. Hope she is feeling better soon.

Nagdabit · Post by **Nagdabit** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:12 pm

When we originally got the girls we set them up in their own cage. Usually we like to put in an equal amount of sticks and concrete perches so they have an option. After 2 days we noticed spotting on one of the wooden perches, turns out it was blood. Apparently their little feet weren't use to the coarseness of the perches, so I took all of them out but one and put more natural sticks in (all were baked in the oven) Hence the reason why we opted for the antibiotic, trying to ward off an infection in their bloody little feet.

We contacted the breeder about her and she recommended a probiotic as well. Can white vinegar be used as a probiotic? I'm worried she won't last until an ordered product arrives. Anything we can get locally or have our vet prescribe for her?

It does appear that she flies down to the bottom of the cage in an attempt to expel an egg. Could she be eggbound and have a yeast infection? Would a probiotic counteract any calcium product used to help lay the egg?

She's been acting like a typically egg bound hen, but we never had one take so long to lay. Although wait, now this is new. I just noticed that she appears to be favoring her one foot. One would think the Doxycycl would have knocked out any infection, but she was just resting with one foot up. Now I'm really confused.

ac12 · Post by **ac12** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:26 pm

I've seen my zebras perch on only one foot/leg. At first I thought it was a problem, then someone said that zebras will do that.

nixity · Post by **nixity** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:33 am

Nagdabit wrote:Can white vinegar be used as a probiotic? I'm worried she won't last until an ordered product arrives. Anything we can get locally or have our vet prescribe for her?

EEEKK noooo

Vinegar is typically thought of as a disinfectant which means it will kill any type of microbe - good or bad.. and the only vinegar you can/should really give finches is organic Apple Cider Vinegar - but the concentration you'd have to give in order for it to really have any type of medicinal effect is too high - it would be way too acidic for them. Most people put it in the water for the tannins and vitamins/minerals (though I'm not really 100% sure why - the amount contained in the vinegar is negligible or it would be included in the nutritional guide and it is not) - it's more like a tonic I think.

Probiotics are specifically live beneficial microbes. You would have to get a powdered probiotic either manufactured specifically for birds (Morning Bird makes one), or one manufactured for people that you can use for birds (Garden of Life Primal Defense is one)

Nagdabit wrote:It does appear that she flies down to the bottom of the cage in an attempt to expel an egg. Could she be eggbound and have a yeast infection? Would a probiotic counteract any calcium product used to help lay the egg?

If she was eggbound she likely would have died by now. It progresses really fast and is quite unmistakable. You will see her actually contracting and straining, possibly breathing heavily and laboring but usually remaining on the bottom of the cage. They sometimes appear unbalanced and wobbly due to the egg being "stuck" in their cloaca.. but they don't really fly around much in the advanced stages.
Probiotics can be administered during any time; though it is recommended not to give them during antibiotic treatment because the antibiotics will kill the good (probios) and bad (nasty bugs), so it is sort of a waste to give both simultaneously - but some people do anyways.

Nagdabit wrote:..but she was just resting with one foot up. Now I'm really confused.

I think this is common bird sleeping/resting posture

Nagdabit · Post by **Nagdabit** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:11 pm

We really appreciate everyone's input in trying to help our little girl. She's still hanging in there. Sorry Tiffany, didn't mean to give you a coronary, I meant to say apple cider vinegar.

Spent a good bit of time researching yeast infections and the symptoms seem to match. I ordered the guardian angel product that Candace spoke of. Probably won't be much help for our little black cheek, but then at least it'll be available down the road.

Actually I just got off the phone with the vet, he'll be able to see her tomorrow night. We let you all know how we make out.

akidsgal · Post by **akidsgal** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:42 pm

I agree about the eggbound thing. If she was, she would have passed no doubt within 2 days. However I would put her in her own cage. Stressing about changing places will sometimes make my birds fluff and stay away from all the other birds too. They are social, but yet sometimes I see them just pushing all the others away. Just like people I would suppose, we all want to have "our" time. Light is always good too. You are doing the right things, just keep doing and she will soon pop up and you will wonder if she was ever acting the way she is or if you were just imagining it.

Post by **Sally** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:19 am

As far as their bloody feet, I have used products like Neosporin on wounds on feet or legs with no problem.

Nagdabit · Post by **Nagdabit** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:35 pm

Couple of random thoughts before we take the black cheek to the vet.

Our three newest hens (of which the black cheek is one) were in a quarantine cage for a month and I never saw a single egg. We didn't put any nests in the cage and they were in a room by themselves, but they could hear any frequently communicated with the rest of the flock. I asked the breeder about it after the third week and she said they really wouldn't lay since they weren't around any males to stimulate they process. We've had girls quarantined by themselves before and there were always eggs somewhere, seed cups, bottom tray, even found a couple on the floor.

In fact no eggs appeared until we put our plucked girls in with them, so obviously we have no way of knowing who the eggs that are in there now belong to. The one egg I found last night in their millet dish had a very thin shell. Sounds like we're going to have to start up with the calcium again. I stopped a couple of days ago when it appeared that she wasn't egg bound. We'll see what the vet says.

I had forgotten to ask the breeder various details about the girls when we first bought them, then by the time we went back to her stand, we couldn't find her. So after getting home we emailed her and she told us the three girls were between 1 and 4 years of age. Wasn't real happy about that piece of information.

When we moved all three girls into the bird room, I had to construct a make shift stand, to lift another cage up so we had room for the girls. As a result the girls were in the dark. So we got a florescent type light fixture (with a UVB rated bulb) and mounted it behind the cage. Not too long afterwards, the black cheek started with her current behavior. So then we set up the infrared light for her. Yet pretty much the entire time she's been sick, she parks her little self in front of the UVB light rather than the infra red. Not sure if it means anything, but I found it curious.

Okay, I need to catch her and put her in the travel cage so we can head out for the hour drive to the vet. Please feel free to comment on any of the above details, especially if it is relevant to her current condition.

Thanks
Rory and Sherry

Nagdabit · Post by **Nagdabit** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:02 pm

Miss Nika (black cheek hen) has returned from the vet. Doc looked her over real well (not egg bound), did a swab of her poop (negative for yeast) and basically came up with nothing definitive. Turns out though there is a small wound on her foot. Probably not from the cement perches since this is on the top side of her foot, like maybe one of the other girls bit her or something. He's guessing she has some type of an infection and gave her a different type of antibiotic, (trimethoprim) since she just had the doxycycl a couple of weeks ago.

Right now she's in rough shape from the long trip, being poked and prodded by the doctor, and having her little beak pried open and nasty medicine shoved down her throat. Although as I glance over now she is in her beloved millet dish, hoarking it down, so that's a good sign. Ooh bonus, she just came over for a drink which means she's getting her medicine, Doc gave it to us in liquid form so we could put it her drinking water.

Guess we'll have to keep an eye on her and look for signs of improvement.

On a side note, our vet was really preaching up the ABBA seed mixes. He and his wife have quite a few birds themselves and he's really likes the results he gets from them. Anyone on here use them?

nixity · Post by **nixity** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:04 am

I bought one 30lb bag..

It came full of moths and moth larvae

I would personally never buy their seed again

nixity · Post by **nixity** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:06 am

Let me clarify...

I didn't buy it direct from Abba, I bought it from a third party..

I didn't complain, because I didn't realize until after I'd opened and used most of the bag..