Gouldian "Aggression" ?

[rottielover]

First let me set the "scene".

I'm just "getting into" keeping finches, so please bare with me.

Just over a month and a half ago now I purchased two male Gouldians. They have been living in a large cage (approx 3-4' wide, 2' deep and 4' high) [I can't remember the exact dimentions off the top of my head]. These birds were vet checked 30 days ago.

4 days ago I purchased two female Gouldians and a pair of soceity finches. I also purchased two "breeding cages" at the same time and the two female gouldians have been in one and the pair of society's in the other. I took these four birds to the vet yesterday. The vet told me that they were in top shape, and were now OK to release into the bigger "aviary" cage with the others now that they've all had their Ivermectin treatment.

I read the artical on finch aggression, so before I moved anyone, I took the two male gouldians out of the big cage and completely re-arranged the cage (perches, food and water dishes, toys, fake plants, etc.).

Then I released the finches in what I called "reverse order" the pair of society's first, then the female gouldians and then the males. I could only catch one at a time in my hands in order to put them in the cage, but they were all put in within 5 min of each other.

As soon as the male's were in the cage the Yellow head male started chasing the female's, and almost immediatly started the "mating dance" next too the red head female. She seemed un-interested and flew away.

This was just yesterday, since then the Yellow head male has randomly chased the other birds (including the society's) around the cage for short periods (a few seconds). He'll then stop for a while and then choose another bird to chase.


So I'm just wondering based on this, if you all feel this is normal behavior. I don't plan on breeding them this year, I would like to start next year/season. My original plan was to keep all the birds in this mixed flight for the majority of the year and just seperate them out for breeding when the time comes.

Opinions?

[FLAMEonfire]

You have nothing to worry about! This behavior is completely normal! I have 57 birds in a number of aviaries all the cages contain a mix of birds. I have Zebra finches, Societies, Nuns, Stars, Strawberries, Green Singing Finches, Lady Gouldian, Spice finches, Whydahs, and last but not least, Owl finches.

Now you only have 5 birds in your cage?! That maybe why your yellow head gouldian cock is chasing the other birds. If you're up to it, buy another pair of Societies bring your count up to 7. Or even better buy 2 pairs of some kind of finches to put in the cage with these. I have found that the aggression stops once you have 7 to 10 birds in the cage. And if you're thinking about breeding anyway societies are always good to have around for fostering eggs and youngsters. Especially with Gouldians that are known for not being good parents. So you'll be correcting 2 problems early.

I must say that I have birds that their personality it to chase others, period! That's just not going to change. I have a Zebra finch I named "Bully" and he lives up to his name!! But he doesn't hurt anyone - it's just a game they play

I hope this information has helped.

[rottielover]

Thank you for your quick reply! As a new finch owner things like this can be a bit un-nerving. It's one thing to read it described in a book, and another to actually see the birds performing a behavior!

I actually have 6 birds total in the flight right now. 2 Male Gouldian's, 2 Female Gouldians, and 2 Society finches (a male and female).

I am worried that my cage size may not be big enough to house more birds (another pair of society's) ??

[FLAMEonfire]

You're fine! That's the size cage I started with also. I have that same size cage that I keep my OOPS birds and their mates in.
What are OOPS birds - Well one is named "Sky King" - he was named after an old TV program that stared a pilot who solved crimes while riding in his plane. Did I know this bird was born with a bad wing and can't fly very well- NO! But if I could buy a little plane he could use it! Then there's "Ice" he's a pure white Zebra born with a bad foot - the other birds picked on him so I took him out and put him in the OOPS cage - they leave him alone there...Funny isn't it, that they seem to understand. I also have a pair of Societies that are weening off a clutch of Gouldian babies, because the parents threw them out and would take care of them. This happens a lot with Gouldians, That's why I said to buy societies when you mentioned breeding Gouldians All in all I have 10 birds in that cage and although I wouldn't want to have to put more in the cage, the cage is fine for the ten of them.

Please, since you're new to birds and you started out with some of the hardest birds to breed - The Gouldians - before you spend too much money. Before you get too attached to their stunning colors. Before you realize what wonderful little birds they are - Think very hard - if you want to get involved with them... Out of all my birds I wish I had never seen a Gouldian - They will break your heart!!

The Gouldians need special foods and special lighting just to get through alive when they go through a molt. And of course it would have to be the males, the beautiful males that are so delicate. I have only lost 1 other kind of bird to any kind of disease or sickness - I have lost 5 Gouldian males this year alone. And even the Vets can't find anything wrong.

I just had another male that was going straight down the road to death - which happens within 2 days of the first sign that's there is something wrong. But this one thank God I pulled through - with a lot of reading and advise from people in the know that I have been dealing with these past few weeks since this crap has started.

Although I love these stunning birds, I tell you to think twice before you get involve!!! *Blaze*

[rottielover]

Thank you again for your excellent advice!

I am sorry to hear of your difficulties with the Gouldians, and of course up till now, no one I've spoken too had discouraged me from keeping them.

Sounds like a 2nd pair of society's may be in order ;)

Please don't worry too much, before I purchased any of my Gouldians I purchased 4 books on finches, one of which is specific only to Gouldians. I've also spent countless hours reading internet pages, forums, message boards, etc. all on the care of Gouldians.

Unfortunetly once I saw my first live Gouldian finch, I was in love and hooked.

I am hopefull that if I provide the same level of care and involvement with my birds as I applied to my saltwater reef aquariums, that sucess with eventually come. (Before I got out of saltwater completely I had kept some very difficult specimins of live coral, clams, fish, etc. Many of which required specialized care).

As for lighting, I'm currently keeping all my birds in my dining room (which is not used as such). It has a large double sliding glass door and get's sunlight from other rooms of the house as well. From sun up to sun down the room has good sunlight coverage. Additionally, I have been sucessful in converting my male gouldians to pelleted diet from Zupreem. At first I thought it would be extremely difficult to convert these birds to the pellet diet based on all the reading I've done. However, for whatever reason, my birds went straight to the pellets (after I had them on the seed diet they were eating at the store for 1 month, as my avian vet recommended).

I also feel extremely fortunate to live close to one of the leading Avian Vet's in the United States (and be his client).

I wonder if I could impose upon you for one more question...

Suppose you had the cage and setup I have currently (as described above) and you had a surplus $1,000 you could spend on your birds... What if any purchases would you make now (knowing what you know now with your experinace) ??

I'm basically after "if I had the money I'd get {THIS} or {THESE} item(s) for my birds. Maybe that's best for another thread... I think I'll post a new thread and just ask in general what people would buy for their avairy's if they had a surplus to spend...

[Sally]

If I can put in my 2 cents worth, I have a little different outlook on this than Blaze. Gouldians are nothing like Zebras and Societies when it comes to breeding, but there are a lot harder finches to breed than Gouldians. Our finches aren't flying free in our yards, they are force-fed what we decide they need, and they usually don't even get to choose their own mate--no wonder we have difficulty breeding some of them! Gouldians will often have problems with their first clutch, or even their first breeding season, but then they usually settle down.

As far as the chasing goes, it doesn't sound like it is really aggressive, and it is absolutely normal for them to sometimes take a little time to get used to each other and become friends. I would only worry if it got to the point of really fighting. And sometimes, they just don't like each other. When I set up my two pairs of Cordon Bleus for breeding a little while back, each pair in their own breeding cage, the males were chasing the females around for days. Mind you, these are not pairs that were just introduced, they have been couples for almost two years, and all of a sudden, they acted like they'd never been together before. Go figure.

It sounds to me like you have done your homework, and with a top avian vet nearby, you should be fine. In the 70's, I wanted Gouldians in the worst way, but at that time, most of them were imported, and they had a reputation for being delicate and only recommended for experienced breeders. And they were out of my price range. Today, I have some Gouldians, and I too think they are just the most beautiful things.

It's not just Gouldians that need lighting--they all benefit from it. I used to keep my birds where they got good light thru the window, but it seems they don't get thru glass the UV light they need. I put all my birds under supplemental lighting, and all their colors are better.

The cage calculator at the FIC says your cage, 4'x2', should hold 4-5 birds. I have many of mine in 30x18x36tall, which should only hold 1-2 birds, according to that, and I have had more than that in my cages, but then you have to be very watchful to make sure no one is being stressed by overcrowding. And the occupants have to get along very well. If I had an extra $1,000 to spend (and I could keep from buying more birds!), I would spend it on housing--the bigger (longer) the cage, the better.

[rottielover]

I apprciate all advice! Anyone is more than welcome to 2cents or MORE here

Guess I should mention we're talking about an old house with really old windows, no UV coating on them.

We've had our Severe Macaw in the same room for 3-4 years now. The only differance is that he does have a "feather teather" and my wife will take him out for a walk 2-3 times a year

I do have another question...

I see here on this website, many people recommend longer rather than taller cages. Other websites and some books have recommended taller cages with the logic that vertical flight takes more effort than horizontal flight, therefore the birds get more of a "work out" when flying UP than just straight across.

I would be very interested to read your thoughts on this.

[Sally]

Yeah, you probably have plenty of UV light coming thru! As far as the flying horizontal or vertical question, both viewpoints really make sense. I still would prefer longer rather than taller, but I would want tall, too. When you think about it, most birds when startled want to go up. They like to perch high up. The problem comes with the cages that are typically sold in pet shops, lots taller than long, more suitable for climbing than flying. Your cage sounds like a really good size. I guess the ideal is an aviary, but that's not always possible.

[rottielover]

Update:

I came home from work and everyone was getting along as if they were old buddies

In fact just before bed time tonight most were on the same perch, my wife called it a "cute little finch ball" (shape of the perch had something to do with that).

[Hilary]

Another reason for longer rather than taller cages is that finches tend to stay around the highest perches, so regardless of how tall the cage is the majority of their exercise will come from flying from high perch to high perch - across the cage.

I agree that your gould boy is behaving normally - he just hasn't learned his manners around the fairer sex yet!

[FLAMEonfire]

OK You asked me If you had an extra $1000 what would I tell you to spend it on?!

My answer is: To spend it on your BEST FRIEND Blaze and move her closer to that Avian Vet you have near you!!!

Sorry - Just dreaming! I wish I had a Vet around here I could trust, maybe I'd feel more confident about my Gouldians! But here in this forum is where I get my best information about my birds -except what I read of course- and I read A LOT! The Vets around here suck!

What would I spend my money on - I'm going to have to go along with everyone else and say a bigger cage - I like any bird would like to think they are free! So the only way we can give them that feeling is to give them the largest cage we can afford to give them. Now they also have some beautiful cage toys that if I had the money I would love to put in their cages -remember though - you are asking a woman- and I know how to spend money! I have seen these web sites that sell bamboo plants, fully planted, alive and ready to put in your aviary. - that's what I have - the biggest cage I could afford.] Also a small fountain about 3' high that sits on the bottom of the cage and would give the birds not only a place to bath, fresh water at all times, a place to put the type of seed plants that they need, but the idea of being in their "natural" habitat. Putting those things in the cage with some kind of natural pellets on the bottom to keep the cage keep - think about it - now only would the cage be beautiful for the home - but it would give the Gouldians the type of area that the birds orginally came from -But it also gives you all the things that you need for the birds also. Fresh water! Plant material for nesting and hiding {for my Gouldians love to hide in my plants, and the greens that they need to stay healthy with.

Now aren't you sorry you asked!!!!

[rottielover]

Now aren't you sorry you asked!!!!

Not at all. I'm asked so that I would get some opinions on what the members here think.

Unfortunatly right now the cage I have fits in the only space free in the house right now. As soon as I am done getting rid of the rest of the fish tanks I'll have much more room!

In fact I have a plan in mind... Right now I have a 75gallon tank in my living room, but because of all the various equipment it takes up more space than what you might think.

After I get all of that out of there I'm going to have a space around 5-6' wide, 3-4' deep and as tall as the ceiling. I've been shopping around the various birds stores in the area looking at cages/aviary's that would fit into such a space.

My eventual setup plan is something along these lines: I have 2 breeding cages, and saw that the same manufacter makes a rolling stand that will stack 3 of these breeding cages, so I'm going to get a 3rd cage and the stand. Next my current cage is going to stay where it is, and will eventually be used to hold the "young" birds after breeding. When I am able I'm going to get an even larger cage/aviary that will go where the fish tank is now, which will house my current birds and possibly a few more (should I end up keeping any of the young, or purchase more). My plan is to keep the "stock" in the large cage and catch them out into breeding cages when that time comes, but for the majority of the year they will be in the big cage/aviary. At this point I'm only planning on a small number of clutches each season. Perhapse if I get more "into" this more, but for now I think I have a decent plan with goals set.

Another thing I was thinking about spending some money on was to join the National Finch and Softbill Society, and maybe a local club. Thoughts and opinions on the bird clubs would be welcome

[FLAMEonfire]

I think if you have a Local Club - that would be the way to go. This way you can make friends and share information on a one to one basis. Also go to the shows in your area, not only are they go for looking at what's out there to "stock" your breeding birds. But you get some great ideas from looking what's being sold as far as supplies and supplements. I also found that people are very friendly and will take the time to talk with you about their birds and what they do to help keep them disease free and healthy. Just be smart, know if they are trying to sell you something or are just being good bird loving friends.

Bird People are a lot like, dog people, or cat people, or fishing people. Once they know you're part of the club they will usually knock themselves out helping you. You just have to remember where you are when talking to any "people". If you're in a selling atmosphere there are going to be those that are there to sell! I'm sorry to say that I do the same thing! I sell leg bands for small birds and you get me into one of these shows and I'm there to sell leg bands!

So watch out for us!!!

[tursiopschic]

I think some chasing is fine, especially since it seems to be non-specific. It's when they start pecking and plucking that you have to watch out. I have a bird that likes to chase, I think it's because he is very active. When the other birds don't want to move, they just stand their ground and he gets soooo sad that they don't play his game.