Help Sexing my new Societies please!

[MistyCate]

Hi there! My name is Misty. I'm new to the forums, although not new to keeping finches as pets, Societies in particular.

However, this is the first time I've bought two Societies as a pair & the first time I am having trouble sexing them - well at least one of them; the chocolate crested. I am *almost* certain that the white/brown pied is a male... he sings A LOT

My goal was not to have a breeding pair necessarily, but I want to be be prepared for chicks just in case! In the past, I've always kept my Societies with mixed species and never worried about it until now.

I know its hard to determine the sex of Societies from description alone; really I have a few questions and clues that maybe I can find help for:

-----It's been a month since I've brought them home and still no chicks. This makes me think that they are both males. BUT, I've never seen or heard the crested finch sing - it's a fairly quiet little guy. Is there dominance among male Societies, meaning if one is outwardly male (the white/ brown pied) and very pushy will the other one - if male - be submissive?? (I have no idea if there is such a thing with finches.) Or do males ONLY sing around females (I haven't ever really found this to be true, but I could be mistaken)

-----If the crested is female, and they have not (and will not) mate, does that mean they could be siblings? They get along very well.

-----Both birds have contributed to adding bedding to the nest they sleep in.

-----the crested's chirp is sometimes more of a purring sound. He's more submissive and less hyper.

-----the white/brown pied tends to sing/warble most when he's on a branch alone, sometimes in front of their mirror.

-----they like to eat and drink together.

-----the white/brown one loves to get preened by the crested and its the only time he's really submissive toward the other one.

-----both tend to start small brief pecking fights with one an other, but rarely.

-----there has been no attempt at mounting or mating that I've seen. And I watch them a lot!

I'm really not sure what else to add. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions on what to look for?

[Here's a photo of the little cuties. Their tentative uni-sex names are Bumblebee (white/brown pied) and Tumbleweed (the crested).]

Thanks!
~Misty

[Sally]

Hi Misty, and welcome to the forum. If you go to the Introductions section, you can post and let others know you are new.

As far as your Societies, they could be both males. I have had males that never sing and are somewhat submissive, and I've had males that never stop singing and are very dominant. A very submissive male will be even less inclined to sing when he is with a dominant male. Since you haven't had any eggs in a month, chances are you have two males. The fact that they could be siblings doesn't mean anything as far as mating, finches don't have the same morals that we have, so brothers and sisters will mate!

They are both cuties, but that crested (Tumbleweed) is adorable!

[mahfuz alam]

welcome to this forum

[lovemyfinch]

Welcome Misty
As far as I can tell the only way to sex societies would be either a male sings or a female lays eggs. I agree with Sally, if after a month they have always had a nest,, both have been building and there are no eggs....you more than likely have 2 males.

[MistyCate]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Yeah, I bought them on my birthday, July 28 th, and they had a nest and nesting material waiting for them, so that certainly sounds agreeable that I should have eggs by now if Tumbleweed is a female. He just acts like some of the females I've had in the past, its so funny! They both have been involved in the nest building, but Bumblebee more so.

Do females not participate at all in nesting??

I'll have to post more pics in the gallery soon; Tumbleweed looks like a rockstar with that mop on his head

And I'm heading over to the Intro thread to introduce myself right now....

[franny]

When I kept society pairs, they both fussed with the nest a lot, not just the male. Your description of a purring sound is hard for me to figure out. Could it be just a soft "cooing" sound? Both will do that when cuddling up to their "mate". But if it sounds more like a loud "cricket", it could be a female.

I'm wondering (and this is just a stab in the dark) if the mirror isn't causing one or the other of them some confusion? Maybe if you take it out, the two of them will concentrate on each other?

Another thought is to separate them for awhile. Put in separate cages out of sight, and see if the crested one will sing. Then put the cages near each other, to see if seeing each other after an absence makes it sing. If not, then at least absence may make the heart grow fonder, at least.

[MistyCate]

When I kept society pairs, they both fussed with the nest a lot, not just the male. Your description of a purring sound is hard for me to figure out. Could it be just a soft "cooing" sound? Both will do that when cuddling up to their "mate". But if it sounds more like a loud "cricket", it could be a female.

I'm wondering (and this is just a stab in the dark) if the mirror isn't causing one or the other of them some confusion? :

It could be a cooing sound. Not sure about the cricket sound, but now you have me curious enough to listen for it. And its funny you should mention it; I've thought about removing the mirror - Bumblebee just loves that thing -just to see what happens

[Domenic]

No eggs probably means two males. All of my male societies sing all day long (although my "females" may actually be males, who knows? ) but I have read of dominant/submissive relationships altering one of the males behavior. I had a male/male pair for fostering and both sang, but only one tried to mount the other. My females seem to spend a little bit more time in the nest, but this is probably not an exact science. I'm sure there are females who don't like the nest as well. Keep looking out for that song, or for eggs. Those are the two only sure-fire ways of knowing.

[Mozelle]

I have just gone through the same situation myself. After about 6 weeks of frustration watching my societies (4 of them), and NO EGGS, I was convinced I had all males.
They all carted around nesting material to the communal nest, my two crested clearly sang, and my two chocolates made a sweet little quiet song of their own. And I think I could liken it to "cooing" at times.
The one day... an egg.

Still have NO idea which is the female, but right now they're (all 4) caring for the first nestling I've ever had

It's possible you nay have 2 boys, but at the moment to me (VERY inexperienced really, so take this for what it's worth it sounds like you're crested MAY be female. At least from limited observations.

All the same, societies are notoriously hard to sex. If you're truly concerned, perhaps you might find a breeder who has a known female. These little birds are so fantastically communal a new member, gently introduced after a proper quarantine time, would probably be welcomed happily into the family

By the way - yours are adorable!

Good Luck!!

[MistyCate]

By the way - yours are adorable!

Good Luck!!

Thanks! And I'll be keeping a closer eye on them now that I've heard your story!

[annague]

The suggestion for finding out if they are males or not is to separate the one in question for 1 day (out of hearing of the other Society) and then put it back in with the other -- if it sings in greeting you will know its a male -- if not -- a female.

Maybe this will work for you.

Beautiful birds!

[Raleighwheels]

I agree with Anna's suggestion. It might be the easiest way to figure it out the sex of the bird.