When will my Red-headed finch males sing (gender?)

[isabird]

I have 3 young red-headed parrot finch babies about 10 weeks old. Any clues on how to determine their gender? Do I have to wait till the males sing? Is there a secret to get them to sing?
Thanks,
Natalie

[isabird]

or any other clues on how to determine the gender of these birds. I only know about the singing....

[annague]

My male parrot finch baby started singing (long trills!) once he fully colored out. It didn't take long. He was born in June this year and now he is sitting on eggs -- a little young for me but he and his sweetheart decided not to waste any time. We'll see how they do.

I'm sure others with more baby PF's than I've produced can give you some more information.

Your babies are adorable! Congratulations.

[annague]

Sorry! I was a little distracted... He was born in March this year (not June).

[CandoAviary]

Sorry! I was a little distracted... He was born in March this year (not June).

LOL.... I was thinking that that must have been a record


Some things to look for.
Males will usually have deeper, richer colors...but then it depends on the quality of bird to start with. I had some males flown in from a south florida breeder... they were pretty, the males bright. I then had some bird flown in from Virginia from someone who breeds for show. I thought she had sent me all males as their colors were so much richer. But no.... they were females in there and have bred for me. But the colors were better than the south Florida males.
The red will usually stop at the outer eye corner on the females, just past for the males. The tail feathers at the rump will tend to flare out if a male, females will be more narrow.
Girls will trill also but not the full, long trill like the males.
Males will many times emerge from the nest with some red in their mask. Females emerge green. So if you watch upon early nest departure this can be a good indicater.
These are just some visual clues and I have found them to be very accurate in sexing the birds. I have had had some breeders feel the sexual area and predict but they all feel the same to me until they are older and in breeding condition.
DNA test are fool proof.
Your chicks look great, Natalie. The sunshine is doing them good

[isabird]

Thanks Anna and Candace-I guess I just need to be patient. They seem to be coloring out quickly so hopefully I will be able to tell soon. Do either of you house more than one pair in an aviary? I'm considering keeping one more pair. Although I might just keep one more pair in my flight with my blue gouldian pair

[CandoAviary]

I put 2 pairs in an aviary once...all at the same time and the pied male mounted all 3 within 10 minutes.... The mounting of the other male was a dominant move and there was a squable. The females were both receptive to his advances
The lower male was dead the next day..... I believed chased into the wall
I then put one pair per aviary...actually 1 pair by themselves per flight (closet aviaries and sunroom aviary)
However I recently within the last 2 months put 2 pair in the outside aviary. My original proven pair and a younger pair.... but it turned out I had 3 male and one female....so much for the 2 pairs
I caught one of the young males up and replaced with a hen. The young male took over the older female, splitting up there union. The older male has now hooked up with the younger female... they co-exist fine now. One is on eggs now.
Many breeders recomend putting at least three pairs or more hens than males into a colony setting. I personally don't like doing this because I want to keep accurate family records. The 2 pairs together in the outside aviary will all be banded the same because they may be related. The dominant male tends to mount any and everything
I have 2 flight cages in the aviary upstairs, one pair per flight and one pair free flying in the aviary. The free flyers are feeding 2 chicks
one pair in a cage has eggs, and the other pair just gave up on their set of dud eggs. Hope better results with the next clutch.
In another room, I have a pair in the aviary, 2 chicks fledged and they are on eggs again I have a pair in the cage in the same room and noticed an empty shell on the cage floor. Peeked and a beautiful hatchling My first flight cage success.
I have another pair in the other aviary....they are still being rested as they bred through the early spring.
And then the 2 pair in the outside aviary. One pair has eggs.

I am still experimenting with different set ups and combination living quarters with this species. So far I have had the best results with one pair in thier own space. But I think it is like many species, it depends on the birds, the amount of space, etc.

[annague]

Well.... I had all mine split up by pairs in their own space and some action by some pairs but the eggs were infertile in those clutches. A couple of my pairs were very ho-hum and seemed to spend most of their time doing anything but nesting. They actually seemed bored although there was some half-hearted courting going on.

So, after much observation -- I decided to mix it up and try communal living just for my PF's. I put all my parrot finches together and WOW. There are occasional plays at dominance but it has worked out and my "ho-hum" birds perked up right away and began interacting with the other birds and being nosy about what the other birds were doing... (I have 4 pairs and 2 extra males but 1 is pretty old I think). Bottom line, 3 pairs are now nesting. The last pair is trying to decide on a nest I think -- I made sure they all had at least 2 choices in nesting and this is the lowest ranking pair. I did have to remove one PF male that thinks he is a female -- Cranberry -- he wants to partner with Tabasco-- a proven male -- (not sure what THATS about! )

You know, I agree with Candace, it's all about the individual birds-- To make things work, I removed the "faux" female and now Tabasco paired with Hot Tamale a TRUE female (who produced my only chick this season) so that's good. The only extra bird is my oldest and smallest male -- ordinarily I wouldn't allow there to be an extra male (not a good practice with PF's as Candace says) but no one bothers him and he bothers no one either -- although he is very perky now -- he loves the communal living and enjoys peeking into nests when he can.

I see a lot more fun personality interactions, too! PF's are very curious and they all like to be in each other's business.

Not sure how it will turn out for me but hoping for the best -- you should try it and see what works best for your birds and you.

[CandoAviary]

It is true they like to be in each others business. The pair in the gazebo style cage in the aviery and the pair in the retangle cage in the aviary is constantly visited by the free flying pair and other birds. I always try and put another pair (of any species of flocking birds) in close proximity of each other. They will still act social but no risk of fatal chasing or fighting. Though the 2 pair in the outside aviary do not fight at all. Only a short chase if the one male gets too close to the other male's hen.
Birds on top of the cage...most on the backside hiding from me

Those blurs in the air are them flying around

[annague]

Wow, Candace, you are so good to take pictures to show everything you talk about. Thank you!

I love the space that all your birds have.

[CandoAviary]

Anna,
A picture is worth a thousand words

[Kathryn]

OT: Candace, I love your setup!