I think S76 didn't work...

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:21 pm

Thanks a lot Tammy.

Right now I noticed weird behavior from one of the ill birds.

He suddenly started running around the cage, jumping and flying from perch to perch and hopping around the floor as if he's looking for a way out. He also eats and drinks quick every minute.

He's not fluffed up at all and nothing seems wrong from the outside but it doesn't seem right for a bird to be completely ill for almost an entire week and then suddenly gets overly energetic within an hour!

I know that sounds like he's doing fine but he flew and hit the cage wires twice from being very hyped up which doesn't seem normal to me!

fairestfinches · Post by **fairestfinches** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:32 am

The behavior you just described sounds like something a bird with Megabacteria (AGY) might do.

Michele

rottielover · Post by **rottielover** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:21 am

Here's a link on AGY (Avian Gastric Yeast)

http://www.finches.org/f-agy.mgi

AGY causes what most people would call "stomach" ulcers. You would be seeing watery stools, possibly a little blood in the stool. Your bird would be unable to get nutrition from the food and would start loosing weight. Additonally the birds droppings would start to smell.

AGY causes the bird to become anemic, due too the loss of blood thru the ulcers... I would think this would cause a reduction of activity in the bird, not hyperactivity.

However, it could explain the frequent eating and drinking, since the bird isn't getting the proper ammount of nutrition due to the ulcers.

According to the research AGY is nearly always a 2ndary infection over and above some other infection.

Generally I rely on my Avian vet for these kinds of diagnosis, however, I think we can resonably infer a few things:

Fact 1 - S76 treatment hasn't done anything
Fact 2 - Amoxitex was administered and you said the birds seemed to get a bit better
Fact 3 - Birds are still sick

Given the avalible facts as described, I'd venture the following educated guess:

It's possible the birds started out with Airsac mites, S76 treatment was actually successful against the mites, but a 2ndary bacterial infection took over. Amoxitex treatment may have attacked the 2ndary bacterial infection, but revealed a tertiary infection, possibly AGY (yeast) infection.

In that case the Amoxitex is ineffective against yeast, and Amphotericin B is recommended (avablie as Megabac-S). If you have access to an Avian vet, you should def. take one of your ill birds in for a firm diagnosis, and they should have the appropriate medication on hand. If it is AGY you'll need to start treatment as soon as possible. The vet should be able to confirm AGY via a fecal smear (the yeast cells should be visible under microscope in the fecal matter).

Can you give us an update and more information?

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:42 pm

Thanks a lot fairestfinches and Rottielover for the detailed information. Three of the birds are in stable condition, one of them is now healthy, and the fourth is the same one I described above.

After reading the description, it's very likely that this is indeed AGY cause few days ago I noticed a tad bit of redness in his stool and yesterday he had a wet vent.

Here's a picture of him (black head) next to one of the recovered birds:

The one thing I noticed today though is that he's eating and drinking normally, I'm not sure if that's a temporary improvement or he's actually getting better though.

Unfortunately the avian vet that I found and contacted only treats larger birds such as parrots but would only provide smaller birds such as finches with electrolytes and mite treatments. I could, however, try and get the medicine if I specify what I need exactly.

Therefore if Amphotericin B is what I need then I can try looking for it.

Here's a pic of all the birds today:

Aside from the black head male, they're all eating and behaving normally and the yellow seems like he started molting as I posted in another thread.

rottielover · Post by **rottielover** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:54 pm

I posted on your other thread about this: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... catid=6089

Can you ask the Avain vet if he thinks a sulfa based medication would work?

I've never run into a vet that only treated a specific type of bird, all the avian vet's I've talked too will treat any bird (basically you pay the same exam fee that you would if it were a large bird). Many of them see Parrot species the most, since they cost more in the first place, many people still (unfortunately) consider finches somehow "expendable" because they are inexpensive compared to the parrot's.

Will the vet do a fecal exam if you bring them a sample of the poo ?

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:05 pm

rottielover wrote:I posted on your other thread about this: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... catid=6089

Can you ask the Avain vet if he thinks a sulfa based medication would work?

I've never run into a vet that only treated a specific type of bird, all the avian vet's I've talked too will treat any bird (basically you pay the same exam fee that you would if it were a large bird). Many of them see Parrot species the most, since they cost more in the first place, many people still (unfortunately) consider finches somehow "expendable" because they are inexpensive compared to the parrot's.

Will the vet do a fecal exam if you bring them a sample of the poo ?

That avian vet told me that they don't really do much to small fragile birds except put them in a warm cage and provide electrolytes and broad spectrum anti biotic - all of which I could do alone. Then he told me about another avian vet but it's 2 and a half hours away and they charge way too much.

Anyway just 2 minutes ago after I replied to the other thread, I searched online for Sulfa based antibiotic and I read that Tetracycline is a sulfa based anti biotic. Luckily I have that on hand, bought it from the same vet above before I could get Amoxitex!

Should I go ahead and use it?

rottielover · Post by **rottielover** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:15 pm

When did you stop the other medication?

Tetracycline will be rendered inert if taken with Calcium, Aluminum, Iron, or Zinc. I would first remove any sources of calcium (oystershell, eggshells, cuttlebone, vitamin and mineral supplements) before you start the treatment. ( you can re-introduce these things after the treatment is done). EDIT : I just read another website that says you should increase the ammount of calcium in the birds diet while using this medication... Very confusing when some sources say to remove it, and others say to add more!!!!

I know that your not supposed to mix antibiotics, and I'm not sure how long it would take for the other drug to be out of the finch's system...

I'm not a vet, and I can't really advise you on when to start the treatment.

I can say that since the amoxycillin med didn't work, it's not going to hurt to try another medication, we already know the first isn't working so it's time to try something else.

If you've had the bird off of the other medication for a few days I'd say it's probably safe to start the new treatment (you already indicated that your moving the sick bird to his own cage in the other thread).

If you gave the bird any of the other medication today, I'd probably wait to give him any Tetracycline today....

I can't see your bird in real-time, so I'm not sure how "bad" he is right now...

Hopefully someone will chime in about mixing the medicines?

Or maybe if that first vet you spoke with is helpful and will take a question over the phone, could you ask about starting the bird on the Tetracycline? Just tell them what you've been using, and when it was last given etc. They should be able to tell you when it's safe to start with a new medication.

Sorry I can't be of more help!

EDIT: I'm doing some searching on the internet right now too see if I can find out when it would be safe to start the next treatment

rottielover · Post by **rottielover** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:33 pm

Try as I might, I haven't found anything on the net that I can access about when to start a treatment (I managed to find a page via search engine, but access to the page is restricted to paying members (have to be a vet) ).

I did find a blurb about yeast infetions in birds, saying that Apple Cider Vinegar added to the drinking water can help to treat gastrointestinal yeast infection.

I have no idea how the medication would react if you were to add Apple Cider Vinegar to the water in case it's the yeast.

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:45 pm

When did you stop the other medication?

It's been exactly 6 days since the Amoxitex treatment ended, they had the final S76 dose after that and ever since they've been on water with NV powder only and nothing else.

I just read another website that says you should increase the ammount of calcium in the birds diet while using this medication... Very confusing when some sources say to remove it, and others say to add more!!!!

I think it would be safer not to add any extra calcium or vitamins while treating with Tetracycline cause here's the composition:

- Tetracycline
- Erythromycin
- Thiamine hydrochloride (vitamin B1)
- Riboflavine base (vitamin B2)
- Nicotinamide (vitamin PP)
- Calcium panthothenate

If you gave the bird any of the other medication today, I'd probably wait to give him any Tetracycline today....

Does NV powder count as medication?

I can't see your bird in real-time, so I'm not sure how "bad" he is right now...

He's not dying, but sick enough for me to expect him dead the next morning. Sometimes he acts better but only for no more than 10 minutes, and then looks helpless again and could hardly hold himself up on the perch with half closed eyes as you could see in the picture.

rottielover · Post by **rottielover** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:57 pm

Here's where I read about NV Powder: http://www.birdhealth.com.au/product/nv.html

It says it's a sugar based vitamin and mineral supplement, and is best used after illness outbreak. Therefore I'm going to say it's not going to count as a medication per-say. I'm not sure if you should continue to use it durring treatment or not, hopefully someone will chime in about that.

If you haven't given the bird anything else for 6 days, and the bird sounds close to death, then I'd say under those circumstances I would probably start the new medication right away (that's my personal opinion of what I might due in a similar set of circumstances).

It sounds like the situation is desperate if you expect the bird to be dead by morning, and there's no guarentee that starting any treatment, even if we knew with absolute certianty it was the correct treatment, would work in time to save the bird.

Sounds like adding eggfood might not hurt anything here either, anything to keep the bird eating and his energy level up.

I wish you luck with the treatment, I hope it helps the bird out!

Please keep us posted!

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:14 pm

I just noticed something, I zoomed into one of the pictures I took today and saw that his foot looks like it has some sort of growth and I'm not sure if that's normal? None of the others have it:

I tried to sharpen the image so it'd be more visible. If it isn't I can try to take more.

Anyway, I just prepared his hospital cage and will add the Tetracycline now, I wouldn't want to wait and regret it later. Thank you so much for all the help!!!

Post by **Sally** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:01 pm

I have been reading all the posts and various threads dealing with your Gould's problems. You have been getting some really good advice from Rottielover (he is so good about researching things), and sounds like you are doing about all you can at this point. The one thing I would add is to make sure the hospital cage has heat of some kind. Heat is one of the best things we can give a sick bird. You can wrap a heating pad around the back of the hospital cage, or you can hang a light bulb right over it. I use the heating pad, and then drape a towel over the cage to give the bird warmth and quiet. I usually supply spray millet, too, since that is a favorite, and I want the bird to keep eating. Good luck with it!

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:52 pm

Sally wrote:I have been reading all the posts and various threads dealing with your Gould's problems. You have been getting some really good advice from Rottielover (he is so good about researching things), and sounds like you are doing about all you can at this point. The one thing I would add is to make sure the hospital cage has heat of some kind. Heat is one of the best things we can give a sick bird. You can wrap a heating pad around the back of the hospital cage, or you can hang a light bulb right over it. I use the heating pad, and then drape a towel over the cage to give the bird warmth and quiet. I usually supply spray millet, too, since that is a favorite, and I want the bird to keep eating. Good luck with it!

Thanks for the tips Sally, I already had a heater and now I put in a spray millet as well. As I held him to move into the hospital cage I quickly clipped his nails a little and inspected his foot some more, I don't know what the growth is but it almost looks like foot corn - his feet doesn't seem irritated though.

I also touched the breast area as he was light and the bone was very protruded, hopefully the tetracycline will help and thanks again Rottielover for all the help and info.

rottielover · Post by **rottielover** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:30 am

Well I just hope that it helps and your bird get's better!

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:04 am

Update: I inspected his stool and there's no blood but there's undigested seeds. I searched and it says that means the gut is hypermotile. I'm not sure if I should take this as a good sign (no blood) or a bad sign (undigested seed).

He looks a tad bit better though and I caught him preening a few times.