I think S76 didn't work...

fairestfinches · Post by **fairestfinches** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:54 pm

Hi H2O,

There is either something in the ingredients or something lacking in the ingredients of the Dr. Marshall products. Whatever it is, it affects the blue body mutation of gouldians the most adversely. I know lots of gould breeders from coast to coast. Those who tried the DM products reported to me adverse effects ranging from continuous molting (never stop), to continuous appearance of "sick bird syndrome" (constantly sitting fluffed, not eating/drinking well, etc.), to birds dying left and right. Some started molting, then exhibited SBS, then died. The majority of birds that experienced the molting & SBS were normals and split to blue body. The majority of blue bodied goulds exhibited SBS then died or died very quickly. One person I know in St. Louis lost all but 10 of his goulds (all blue body) within 24 hours after starting them on the DM program. One breeder in Utah has been unable to breed his birds for 2 years since starting them on the DM program and lost a large number of his blue lines. Another breeder in GA reported the same. Etc., Etc., Etc.

We discontinued the Morning Bird program we had been using and tried the DM program last spring/summer. Our goulds started exhibiting SBS. Initially I thought they might have become infected with something, so I treated with antibiotics. After several months with no improvement, I discontinued antibiotics and the DM program. I put my birds back on the Morning Bird program and there was an immediate, and very drastic improvement in their overall health. Unfortunately, our birds were on the DM program long enough that it did affect their ability to successfully reproduce last winter. This was before I had heard from the other breeders and learned what their experience had been.

Our birds have been on the Morning Bird program since early fall of last year and have had no problems since -- with molting or breeding this year. All of the breeders whose birds experienced problems with the DM program that I know also stopped giving the birds that survived the DM products. And, with the exception of the breeder in Utah, the birds are doing fine now.

Yes, if the birds are stressed/fluffed, then electrolytes can/do help. We've had excellent experience with Morning Bird's Thrive product in that regard.

Sounds like the Tet/Erythro treatment may have worked. My suggestion is to keep an eye on him ... and the others ... in case they take a turn for the worse.

Also, since these are birds you recently acquired, do you know when they were last treated for intestinal worms?

Michele

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:10 pm

Thanks a lot Michele, honestly I feel lost now cause the DM products are on their way but I guess I'll put them aside or maybe use some of it in addition to what I already offer my birds.

Anyway, today the black bird is not doing well, his stool has nothing wrong with it at all (I put a white paper to have a better look) but he's a bit weak and lost weight.

The real bad news is, I looked for Amphotericin-B in all the vet clinics here and none of them have it and said it's not available. What should I do now?

I haven't tried Ronex after the S76 treatment, should I try it in case what he has isn't AGY?

fairestfinches · Post by **fairestfinches** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:01 am

H2O,

You're welcome. If you choose not to use the Dr. Marshall products, I'm sure Laraine would be willing to allow you to exchange them for something else (she also carries Morning Bird) as long as you don't open any of the DM products. I know she has done so for others.

I'm sorry to hear the black headed male isn't improving. Has the Scatt arrived yet? Also, you can give him a Pedialyte (mixed 1:1 with water) to make sure he's getting electrolytes until the health issue is resolved.

Amphotericin-B is also sold under the generic name of Diflucan -- a prescription antibiotic that is more commonly found. If the vets are telling you they don't have Amphotericin-B and aren't suggesting Diflucan, they might not want to provide it. It is a harsh drug. But, it's the only one that's shown any degree of effectiveness with treating AGY.

Here is a brief summary of the usual symptoms and treatment of
Megabacteria (AGY): Vomiting; whole or partially digested seeds in
the droppings; SBS ("sick bird syndrome"); listless, drunken or stupid behavior (i.e., staring at the lights, lack of coordination, trying to fly or squeeze through cage bars, flying backwards, etc.); emaciation and wasting prior to death. Treatment - Amphotericin B for a minimum of 30 days. Delivered in water or via crop needle for severely ill bird. Supportive care is a must - soft foods. Possibly even supplemental handfeeding or special needs foods for the first few weeks. For severe cases, a hospital cage is a must for the first two weeks.

It's not often that a lab can pinpoint a specific cause of illness in a finch. And, it's even harder to diagnose the underlying cause when birds are really good at hiding their symptoms.

Answering the following questions might help me figure out more precisely what is happening with your gould:

1) When did you acquire him? If recently ....
2) What color were his droppings at that time?
3) How & when did they change?
4) What is the color and consistency of his droppings?
5) Is there any odor to the droppings?
6) How has his behavior changed since you acquired him?
7) Did the person who you purchased him from provide you with any seed that he was used to eating (so you could wean him onto your seed)?

Does the seller live near you?
9) Do you have city or well water?
10) If city water, have any water lines broken between your home and the city's water supply recently? Can you check to see?
11) If well water, when was the last time you had it checked?
12) Did you acquire any other birds when you acquired this gouldian or afterwards?
13) If so, what, when, and what are your quarantine procedures?
14) What medications have you administered to him, when, & how much?
15) Can you answer the same questions about the other birds?

Sorry for the laundry list, but we need to cover as many bases as possible.

Michele

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:00 am

Wow thanks a lot Michele for all the details!! I will check for Diflucan tonight.

My package hasn't arrived yet unfortunately, I'm desperately waiting for it to treat my birds with SCATT as soon as possible - the other three Gouldians are holding well though and aside from the clicking sound I heard few days ago there's no problems. Anyway I tried to answer with as much detail as possible:

BLACK HEAD MALE:

1) When did you acquire him? If recently ....
- November 11, 5 weeks ago.

2) What color were his droppings at that time?
- Normal even though he wasn't looking well since day 2 after he was home.

3) How & when did they change?
- I noticed the change in his droppings after the second S76 treatment, that's when his condition was at its worse.

4) What is the color and consistency of his droppings?
- Right now the same color as his seeds and the urates, feces, and urine are all visible and look normal.

5) Is there any odor to the droppings?
- No

6) How has his behavior changed since you acquired him?
- The first day he was stressed but didn't show any clear symptoms, after 4 days he was going light and was wasting away rapidly so I treated him with NV powder, ronex, anti-biotics in a hospital cage and he got better. Then treated for S76 and once the treatment ended he was getting sick again. I would say he's been weak and struggling ever since I got him.

7) Did the person who you purchased him from provide you with any seed that he was used to eating (so you could wean him onto your seed)?
- The bird shop that ordered them for me illegally imports birds from Holland cause importing is still banned due to the birds flu, he refused to tell me any information regarding the source, I bought the birds the day after they arrived.

8 ) Does the seller live near you?
- No

9) Do you have city or well water?
- City water, PH at 6-6.5 and the chlorine/chloramine level isn't as bad as other cities, I kept fish before and used to run tests on the water.

10) If city water, have any water lines broken between your home and the city's water supply recently? Can you check to see?
- I called to check and apparently no.

12) Did you acquire any other birds when you acquired this gouldian or afterwards?
- No. They were the last birds I bought.

14) What medications have you administered to him, when, & how much?
November 15: Ronex (1 week)/Amoxitex (5 days) cause he went light
November 22: S76 treatment (unlike the other 3 gouldians, I used S76 directly on his neck for 5 days then 3 days in the water, he was housed separately in a hospital cage since Nov 15, was brought back with the rest after all of them completed the treatment.)
November 29: Amoxitex started cause all the birds were getting sick at this point.
December 11: Tetracycline/Erythromycin anti-biotic for 5 days.

----------------------------

BLACK HEAD FEMALE:

1) When did you acquire her? If recently ....
- November 11, 5 weeks ago.

2) What color were her droppings at that time?
- Normal.

3) How & when did they change?
- Never changed.

4) What is the color and consistency of her droppings?
- Urates, feces, and urine are all visible and look normal.

5) Is there any odor to the droppings?
- No

6) How has her behavior changed since you acquired her?
- Out of all of my birds, she's the one that never looked sick even when she was clicking with mites.

14) What medications have you administered to her, when, & how much?
November 22: S76 treatment in the water.
November 29: Amoxitex started cause all the birds were getting sick at this point.

----------------------------

RED HEAD MALE:

1) When did you acquire him? If recently ....
- November 11, 5 weeks ago.

2) What color were his droppings at that time?
- Normal.

3) How & when did they change?
- They did look green a few times which I believe is caused by liver illness, but the seed also has some green stuff in it and they're fed veggies sometimes so it's hard to tell.

4) What is the color and consistency of his droppings?
- At this point urates, feces, and urine are all visible and look normal.

5) Is there any odor to the droppings?
- No

6) How has his behavior changed since you acquired him?
- This bird was sick a few times but never as bad as the black head, he went light once and was at his worse condition after the second S76 dose and that is when I had to treat everyone with amoxitex. Right now he looks 100% normal and he's my best singer!

14) What medications have you administered to him, when, & how much?
November 22: S76 treatment in the water.
November 29: Amoxitex started cause all the birds were getting sick at this point.

----------------------------

YELLOW MALE:

1) When did you acquire him? If recently ....
- October 18, 2 months ago.

2) What color were his droppings at that time?
- I wasn't keeping records then so I don't remember.

3) How & when did they change?
- From what I noticed he never had problems in his droppings.

4) What is the color and consistency of his droppings?
- At this point urates, feces, and urine are all visible and look normal.

5) Is there any odor to the droppings?
- No

6) How has his behavior changed since you acquired him?
- When I first had him he was my only gouldian, he was stressed at first cause I had to move him around a few times in the beginning, but eventually he got better and the only time he was sick again was when he had the mites and getting treated for it. Currently going through a mini molt and loves to sing and compete with the red head male.

14) What medications have you administered to him, when, & how much?
October 30: Anti-biotic treatment/NV powder due to going light and stress.
November 22: S76 treatment in the water.
November 29: Amoxitex started cause all the birds were getting sick at this point.

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:22 pm

I just bought Diflucan (50 mg Fluconazole), 7 tablets were $25 which is a lot for just 7 small tablets

I don't know how much should be used either.

fairestfinches · Post by **fairestfinches** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:51 pm

Hi, H2O!

Do you remember the dosage of Ronex you administered to the goulds -- i.e., 1/2 tsp to 2 quarts or 2 tsp to 2 quarts?

If you used the straight dosage -- 1/2 tsp to 2 quarts -- then he could have a particularly nasty infection of trich, giardia, or cochlosoma that wasn't fully eradicated before you adminstered the S76.

With the drinking water, it's not so much the ph levels as it is the contaminants found in all public water. A close friend of mine who breeds goulds ran into a similar problem with her birds this fall because the city water lines in her area kept breaking. She eventually fixed the problem by putting all of her birds on distilled water and administering probiotics.

Now, you mentioned several times that the birds seemed to be "going light." This is called Atoxoplasma, which is a form of coccidiosis -- a protozoa intestinal infection that has gotten into the bird's bloodstream (as opposed to just the gut) and damages the liver and spleen causing green or yellowish/green stool that gradually become loose. The best treatment for coccidiosis are sulfa based drugs -- i.e., Trimethoprim Sulfa.

I am NOT a vet, so I am only going to make suggestions based on what I would do if I were in your situation:

1) If you administered Ronex at the rate of 1/2 tsp per 2 quarts of water the last time, I would put them back on Ronex mixed at the rate of 2 tsp per water for 3 days then mix it at the rate of 1/2 tsp per 2 quarts and administer it for 4 more days.

2) Treat them with the Scatt as soon as you get it. If it doesn't arrive tomorrow, let me know and I will overnight a 2 oz bottle of Iverlux to you if you would be willing to pay the overnight shipping cost.

3) If the birds don't respond to the Ronex at the dosing rate in #1 above, I would then put them on Trimethoprim Sulfa. This can be purchased at Foys Pigeon Supplies for $24.95 plus shipping. I can't bring up Foys' website right now or I would paste the link to the correct webpage in here for you.

4) If the birds don't respond to either the Ronex or the T-Sulfa, then I would administer the diflucan. Diflucan is a harsh drug and I would only use it as a last recourse. (AGY can be difficult to diagnose via fecal smear ... lots of false negative results are obtained. But, I would probably contact Texas A & M Univ. and ask them to send me a kit to collect a fecal smear -- so if the birds don't respond to the Ronex or T-Sulfa, you can collect a smear and send it to TAMU to be tested for AGY.)

I will find out what the dosing rate is for the 50 mg diflucan tabs you bought today and let you know.

Michele

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:30 pm

Thank you so much Michele for your response.

I will disinfect everything and put all the birds on Ronex again (2 tsp to 2 quarts). I used it before but 1/2 tsp to 2 quarts which is probably why there was no recovery from the black male.

I also must mention that I'm not in the USA which is why things take a while to get here, however I am sure that SCATT should arrive this week (fingers crossed).

As for drinking water, I'll use mineral water instead to be on the safe side

Will keep the thread updated with any changes and hopefully this won't drag much longer!

fairestfinches · Post by **fairestfinches** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:11 am

You're quite welcome, H2O.

My heart goes out to you. I know how frustrating it can be to figure out what is making a bird sick. I am more than willing to share any/all information I have that could help you help your bird.

I didn't realize you weren't in the US. That probably makes things a bit more challenging for you.

But, definitely keep us posted on your efforts and the bird's progress. I collect all info I can on these issues and save them in the hopes that it might help someone else down the road.

Best wishes for your success!

Michele

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:47 pm

Today's the 3rd and last day of using Ronex at 2tsp/2quarts and unfortunately the bird still remains the same. The rest however are doing excellent with no signs of anything, even the clicking is not there but I will treat them with SCATT anyway just in case.

Another thing I noticed with the black male is that his lower beak has overgrown. Not sure if that's a sign of anything.

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:15 pm

Today's 5th day on Ronex, the black head male was taking a bath, I'm not sure but I take that as a good sign?

He's still thin though and weaker than the rest, but not fluffed up and doesn't spend his time eating like he did when he was going light. His stool shows nothing abnormal either but when he's perching he doesn't hold himself up like the others (that's pretty much the only symptom he has now). Should I look for Trimethoprim Sulfa and treat him with that next? Cause two days are left for the Ronex treatment.

Thanks.

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:52 am

I was doubting whether or not he was recovering but today he danced and bowed to the BH female at least 3 or 4 times! He's also been taking a bath in the water dish every morning.

His only problem though is the bottom beak which has overgrown the top and not aligned properly so I added another mini sandy perch to help. Aside from that, the activity level rose to a whole new level in their cage, except for my yellow gouldian cause he's going through a molt.

I also received SCATT but I'm kind of worried that if I apply it then I'll have to go through the whole thing again with the secondary infections. I would appreciate if someone can tell me how to avoid trouble this time around.

Thanks

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:10 am

New discovery....

Overall, all my goulds are doing well but as I mentioned in another thread, the BH male still appears weak even though he's no longer showing symptoms but today I saw some green droppings. I held him and he was thin, which means he's not absorbing nutrients even though I see him eating just like the other 3 goulds which are currently doing absolutely fine.

The one thing I didn't try yet from fairestfinches suggestions was T-sulfa which I had a hard time finding but then I remembered the man that helps import these birds into the market (illegally, no birds are allowed to get through customs because of the H5N1 fiasco), I first met him accidentally when I was at the birds store where he was dropping a few boxes and we spoke about meds that I couldn't find here at the time so he gave me his number.

I called to see if he could help me get T-Sulfa and told him that I'm having trouble with one of my gouldians and he said "good that yours are still alive, we lost almost 50% of them before any were sold". I asked why and he said they were all getting sick quickly cause they were shipped in large numbers in very small cages that were filthy when arrived and drinking water was not provided properly as it was spilled everywhere.

That immediately reminded me of something I read in Finch Niche:

Coccidiosis outbreak: During the wet season or during any time of year of the area is damp. Keeping birds in tight groups (over crowding) will also promote the spread of the infection.

So that must be what my bird has and maybe that is why he was responding to the sulfa-based anti-biotic. I immediately added Cocci-Care this morning and will see if things get better in a week, if not then I will try to get Trimethaprim Sulfa which this man says he could help me find.

Now I really hope this will put an end to this bird's misery and I'm so glad that at least now I have an idea of what's going on!!

Post by **Sally** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:10 pm

So glad to hear that things may be looking up for you. I've been following this from the beginning, and luckily, I've never had to go thru the ordeal you've been put thru. Not to criticize, but that man said he lost 50% of the birds BEFORE any were sold--he shouldn't have sold the rest till he was sure they were all healthy again. Shame on him.

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:39 pm

Sally, I honestly felt very uncomfortable with what he said.

Not only they sold sick birds and expected them to die in their new homes but it's sad that more than half of them died due to bad handling that could've been easily avoided.

Anyway the good news is that I found Trimethoprim Sulfa, so if Cocci-Care doesn't take care of the problem, apparantly T-sulfa should.

spector · Post by **spector** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:37 pm

I tried S76 with no success (two of my birds got sick WHILE on treatment), but I used Scatt immediately afterward (the same weekend as their last in-water S76 treatment), and within 48 hours, all were sounding great.

I tend to steer clear of "Dr. Rob" and his products. Vetafarm, however, is a reputable manufacturer that I trust, and my recent experience with Scatt just makes me trust them that much more.

I bought both products from Lady Gouldian Finch. In another group, the owner of that site suggested that maybe my birds didn't actually have air sac mites, and that was why the S76 didn't work. But she didn't respond when I asked why the Scatt, which is for treatment of air sac mites, would have immediate results when S76 didn't. She is a big proponent of "Dr. Rob," and she seems to feel that S76 is a good product. However, I have heard significantly more bad reports about it than good (as witnesses in this thread), so I won't be buying it in the future.