Liquid Droppings

[gina]

How is your little hen doing? Has the vet gotten back to you about meds? For what it's worth, my husband is a vet and he said that he used to give calcium injection along with a vitamin A and D (combined) injection for birds with impacted oviducts. Lots of warmth, too! Good luck.

[Raleighwheels]

How is your little hen doing? Has the vet gotten back to you about meds? For what it's worth, my husband is a vet and he said that he used to give calcium injection along with a vitamin A and D (combined) injection for birds with impacted oviducts. Lots of warmth, too! Good luck.

She is doing okay. Still more of the same pure liquid poops. She is still eating and drinking just fine. I have been giving her the steam baths about twice a day or so. I am also continuing with the calcium supplements. She gets three drops of Calcium Plus in her water, I scrape the dust of a cuttlebone over her seed and sprinkle crushed egg shells in her seed. I tried the eggfood mixture again, but the same thing happened as last time, she blew most of it out the back.

The vet hasn't gotten back with me yet, but I am hoping she will hurry it up haha. I'll be sure to bring up that treatment whenever she calls me.

[gina]

My husband also said that after a certain amount of time, it can become sort of "stuck for good". You've probably heard of human fetuses calcifying or "mummifying" and being found years later by accident during surgery for something else . The body has the ability to wall off foreign matter, so maybe this could be what's happening(?). I do hope she improves and gets over this unfortunate episode soon!

[Raleighwheels]

Well, I just got another call from the vet. She said that her post online had some more responses as to what we can do for Penelope. The people online asked if she could get a blood sample from Penelope, but the vet is hesitant to do that, because Penelope just gets so stressed out when handled. They also suggested some drops that would be injected under the skin, which would basically help hydrate her. The vet used the example of using pedialyte when a child is sick. Again, she isn't too sure about this, again because of the handling issue. If we decided to do this, Penelope would stay there for a day and she would be injected a couple of times, morning and evening. The other option the people online suggested was that we try something called neo-calglucon. Which I guess is a more concentrated form of calcium.

She said that one of the responders online said that there are other things that could be going on that would make it look like an egg was in her. She said there could be a mass in there, or she could have some type of liver disease.

I did ask her about putting Penelope in with the other birds, and she said there shouldn't be any issuses with that. She said that we can do that and she will call back on Monday to see how Penelope is doing. The vet seemed happy that Penelope hadn't gotten any worse and said that it is all a good sign that she is eating and drinking well enough.

I guess now I need some advice. What do you guys think would be the best option?

[lovemyfinch]

No suggestion but I am sending prayers your way

[Raleighwheels]

If it actually is liver disease, which I think it is now that I am doing some research, would it be safe to turn the heat lamp off during the evening? I don't want to deprive her of the heat, but I read that they need sleep to help the liver repair itself. What do you guys think?

[gina]

If your hen is eating and drinking normally, she should not be dehydrated and therefore not require fluids. If you give her a measured amount of water in the morning and then measure what's left before bedtime, you'll know how much she is drinking. If the vet really thinks she needs electrolytes (like pedialyte) those can be put in her drinking water as well and avoid the stress of giving the subcutaneous fluids. It is easy to overdose electrolytes so the vet should be really sure she needs them before prescribing any! She wouldn't have lived this long with a retained egg, so whatever it is (mass or partially calcified egg) may just be a permanent resident at this point. I would bring this up with your vet. If this is the case, antibiotics to rule out and /or prevent an oviduct infection (which she may have, but will definitely will be prone to) and heat to make her life easier, may be an appropriate course to take. Good luck - and feel free to run things by me that I can mention to my husband. He has done more avian medicine than most general veterinarians have, and he will certainly let me know when something is beyond his scope!

[6finchfriends]

for your little hen. Hope she is better soon.

[Raleighwheels]

If your hen is eating and drinking normally, she should not be dehydrated and therefore not require fluids. If you give her a measured amount of water in the morning and then measure what's left before bedtime, you'll know how much she is drinking. If the vet really thinks she needs electrolytes (like pedialyte) those can be put in her drinking water as well and avoid the stress of giving the subcutaneous fluids. It is easy to overdose electrolytes so the vet should be really sure she needs them before prescribing any! She wouldn't have lived this long with a retained egg, so whatever it is (mass or partially calcified egg) may just be a permanent resident at this point. I would bring this up with your vet. If this is the case, antibiotics to rule out and /or prevent an oviduct infection (which she may have, but will definitely will be prone to) and heat to make her life easier, may be an appropriate course to take. Good luck - and feel free to run things by me that I can mention to my husband. He has done more avian medicine than most general veterinarians have, and he will certainly let me know when something is beyond his scope!

Thanks so much for the help!

I guess I do have a few questions...

What exactly would the neo calglucon do for her? Especially if it is liver disease, or is the vet just trying to cover the egg base again?

If she does have a permanent egg in her, can it cause her any damage, or will it just kind of be there without hurting her?

What types of antibiotics could be prescribed to rule out an ovarian impaction?

Even though I really don't want to do it, would the blood test give some definite answers and stop all the guessing?

Finally, am I correct in my readings that liver disease, if she does have it, can be cured with lots of time?

[gina]

O.K. Here goes... Bloodwork might give some answers and he generally does recommend it, but it still doesn't 100% guarantee an answer and unless the vet has a method of blood analysis that uses very tiny amounts of blood, the stress and blood loss could have serious consequences on a sick finch. The neo calgluconate is calcium and glucose and it won't fix a stuck egg at this point in time (works best if caught within a few days) - if that's the problem. If it is a stuck partially calcified egg, it's probably scarring (adhering) to the wall of the oviduct. He's not sure about the antibiotic - if it's not infected at this point, it could wait. However, if your vet feels it couldn't hurt, he tends to like Baytril. As far as liver disease is concerned, bad liver disease is really bad. I know that sounds stupid, but that's how he put it. Early liver disease (a mild hepatitis) could get better, but it's usually a bad sign. Glucose might help some if it is liver disease. Is she still eating and drinking adequate amounts? From what I've told him, he's leaning towards it being a chronic impacted oviduct. He can't understand why the x-ray isn't able to tell them more. If your vet's x-rays are digital, is there any chance she would e-mail them to him so he could take a look? Our address is: Kali0430@msn.com
What are Penelope's signs suggesting liver disease?
I hope this helps. Medicine is not an exact science and can be frustrating! Especially when the patient can't tell you where it hurts!

[gina]

OOps! missed the permanent egg question. Yes, she could live with it. She would never be able to lay eggs again (obviously), and would be prone to infections in the oviduct. You'd just have to keep an eye on her for early signs that she's getting sick, and put her on antibiotics. This would be the course for the rest of her life. Whew...

[Raleighwheels]

Thanks for all the help Gina! The vet is going to call me today, hopefully, and I will talk to her about the things you suggested. I might have the vet order the neo calglucon, because I can't seem to find it anywhere.

The only reason I am thinking liver disease, is because of her dropping color. Other than that, I don't really see any other signs. She is still eating and drinking like normal, and is acting like her usual self.

I'm just to the point where I want to know exactly what is going on with her, so I can treat it appropriately.

[gina]

I did read that poo can be green or yellow with liver disease. This is a good article on what to examine poop for: http://www.finchniche.com/a-poopology.php Did the vet recommend an antibiotic at all? If she is eating and drinking well, I think the biopsy needed to confirm liver disease would just make things worse. Your vet should do a fecal though. That's very basic and easy (you could drop off the sample without even disturbing your finch) and you might as well rule out parasites once and for all. I do wish my husband could view those x-rays and give you a 2nd opinion, though! I'm going to send you my phone # in a private message. If you'd like, you can ask your vet to loan you your x-rays and you could mail them to us. My husband would mail them back to you or your vet after looking at them. This is done all the time by vets.
You may be having trouble finding Calcium gluconate because it's most likely injection only. If your vet is doing that for the egg possibility, that's most likely not going to help. Especially if she is getting plenty of Calcium in her food and supplements. Glucose in fluids for liver disease would be a different story. However, overdoses of calcium can be very bad (heart failure).
I really hope this post finds her doing better - or at least stable. Good Luck!

[Raleighwheels]

I did read that poo can be green or yellow with liver disease. This is a good article on what to examine poop for: http://www.finchniche.com/a-poopology.php Did the vet recommend an antibiotic at all? If she is eating and drinking well, I think the biopsy needed to confirm liver disease would just make things worse. Your vet should do a fecal though. That's very basic and easy (you could drop off the sample without even disturbing your finch) and you might as well rule out parasites once and for all. I do wish my husband could view those x-rays and give you a 2nd opinion, though! I'm going to send you my phone # in a private message. If you'd like, you can ask your vet to loan you your x-rays and you could mail them to us. My husband would mail them back to you or your vet after looking at them. This is done all the time by vets.
You may be having trouble finding Calcium gluconate because it's most likely injection only. If your vet is doing that for the egg possibility, that's most likely not going to help. Especially if she is getting plenty of Calcium in her food and supplements. Glucose in fluids for liver disease would be a different story. However, overdoses of calcium can be very bad (heart failure).
I really hope this post finds her doing better - or at least stable. Good Luck!

Thanks for the article. After reading it, I can tell you that her urine usually does dry a greenish color. The fecal matter usually ranges from a tan color to a sometimes brown color.

One of my biggest concers is the overdosing of calcium. I have been trying my best to give her enough, but not too much. The way the vet described the neo calglucon is that it is a possibly a liquid. She said that another vet suggested a dosage of 1ml to every 30ml of water.

The vet did call me today and gave me a number to another avian vet. The office also told me that they would send me the x-rays to look at. Once I get them, I will post them for everyone to look at and I will forward them to you Gina, so your husband can check them out. I would like his opinion before I call the other avian vet, since they are located in Harrisburg.

[Raleighwheels]

I haven't forgotten about you Gina! I never received the x-rays, so I called the vet, and they said they wouldn't send them unless it was to another vet. I don't get why they won't let me see what I paid for, but whatever. However, they did offer to send the x-rays to me on a disk. Once I get the disk, I will try to copy the image on the computer and post it for you.

I did think of another question, if your husband doesn't mind...

If she does have an ovarian impaction, would it be best for her to not go back into the main cage with her mate?

I have a cage that houses her two female offspring, but it would be a rather tight fit for three birds. Plus, the two females are always laying infertile eggs, and I am afraid that she might get into synch with them or something.

There is only one other cage that I have right now, and it would only be big enough for her, and even that is pushing it. I used it as a transport cage earlier on for the other birds.