Liquid Droppings

[gina]

I think any antibiotic has the risk of killing beneficial gut bacteria and probiotics would be good to give her after a full course of antibiotics is completed - to replenish the "good guys" . As far as I know, probiotics can interfere with antibiotic activity, so they are not administered together . I can check on that for you.

[lovemyfinch]

I believe that Gina is right. Probiotics will impede on the antibiotics.

[debbie276]

I was able to find some Baytril on ladygouldianfinch.com, but one thing that I noticed is that the link you provided earlier says that it kills all gut bacteria, so a probiotic is needed. The ladygouldianfinch site doesn't say anything about that.

I believe that the ladygouldianfinch site follows Dr. Marshall's theory that the birds have a sterile bowel so they wouldn't recommend probotics, they would be unnecessary. If you'd like to read about his theory here's a link:
http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/featur ... ebowel.mgi

All antibiotics will kill good and bad bacteria so if you don't follow the sterile bowel theory I would give probotics after giving antibiotics.

[Raleighwheels]

I was able to find some Baytril on ladygouldianfinch.com, but one thing that I noticed is that the link you provided earlier says that it kills all gut bacteria, so a probiotic is needed. The ladygouldianfinch site doesn't say anything about that.

I believe that the ladygouldianfinch site follows Dr. Marshall's theory that the birds have a sterile bowel so they wouldn't recommend probotics, they would be unnecessary. If you'd like to read about his theory here's a link:
http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/featur ... ebowel.mgi

All antibiotics will kill good and bad bacteria so if you don't follow the sterile bowel theory I would give probotics after giving antibiotics.

Thanks for the link. His article was pretty convincing. I think I am going to try just using the Baytril, unless anyone objects to it.

[gina]

The Baytril should only be necessary if you sense an infection is brewing. After the course of antibiotics keep an eye on her droppings. Any sign of GI upset (diarrhea, lack of appetite) might benefit from probiotics. Yeast also overgrows after antibiotic therapy and remember, you are not dealing with a perfectly healthy bird. Here's another article that discusses probiotics and Rob Marshall's theory.
http://finchfiles.com/FinchFiles/Health ... andida.htm
Any breeders out there with thoughts on or experiences with probiotics

[lovemyfinch]

I have always given probiotics to my flock mixed in with their eggfood. I don`t think that I would be willing to stop now

[debbie276]

I've never used probiotics and have had no problem with yeast, even with hand feeding and supplementing chicks. That does not mean I don't think they should have good bacteria though. According to Robert Black, contact with other birds, eating the food and drinking the water soon replaces the beneficial bacteria. I keep my birds in aviaries so I never really felt that adding probiotics was a must. Seems to have worked all these years.

I have also read that you MUST use a avian specific probiotic. Today read that you can not add it to chlorinated water or water with any products like sparkle.

It's very hard to find anything not written by someone selling the probiotic but I found a very interesting article this morning written in Bird Talk Magazine. At least it gives you things to look for in a good probiotic.
http://www.avianweb.com/images/HolisticParrot.pdf

[dfcauley]

The subject of probiotics is very controversial. I have used them for years and now I have stopped. I have noticed no difference with or without them. I was using them DAILY on soaked seeds and in eggfood. I am still undecided about it.

[Sally]

It's very hard to find anything not written by someone selling the probiotic but I found a very interesting article this morning written in Bird Talk Magazine. At least it gives you things to look for in a good probiotic.
http://www.avianweb.com/images/HolisticParrot.pdf

Interesting article, Debbie. I'm using probiotics only after giving an antibiotic or similar type medication.

IMO, there is no one-fits-all perfect way to keep our finches, as we all have different species, housing, diet. So we try out different things and work out a program that works for us and keeps our fids healthy and happy.

[Raleighwheels]

Penelope is starting to get worse. Last night, I noiced her at the bottom of the cage. She has been rocking from side to side, and has trouble keeping her balance. Last night, she woke my girlfriend up after a bad fall. My girlfriend said that she was on her side on the cage floor. She scooped Penelope up in her hand and held her for about 10 minutes before Penelope recovered and flew to her perch. I also noticed a lump by her vent area.

She wasn't any better today, so we took her back to the vet. The vet saw the lump, but said that she couldn't feel an egg inside Penelope anymore. The vet also said that Penelope was losing weight, so she suggested force feeding. The vet injected Penelope with some liquid to help hydrate her, then she did a force feeding, which Penelope hated.

The vet told us to force feed every four hours and we could also try giving her some baby food to eat. She said that she doesn't have much hope for Penelope, but it is still worth trying.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what to do with her now? She is still separated and has a heat lamp on her. We are very unsure about force feeding every four hours, because of the stress on Penelope. Also, because of work, we can't always do the feeding. She is still eating seed and she does eat her fruits and vegetables, so I know she could be okay if we skipped a force feeding.

[6finchfriends]

Poor little dear I hate to say it but if she has a lump and the vet said there isn't much hope, I don't know if I'd force feed. Especially if it's only going to 'keep her alive' not cure her. It sounds like it would be very stressful on an already ill little finch. Especially if she's eating on her own. It's a very difficult position to be in and I sure feel bad for you and Penelope

[Raleighwheels]

My girlfriend bought some rice and peas baby food for Penelope, because it had protein, vitamins, minerals and about a gram of fat. She just called me and said that Penelope is loving it so far.

[6finchfriends]

That sounds very promising If she's eating on her own then she's doing well I think. That was a great idea, the baby food!

[gina]

I'm so glad she is liking the baby food . Maybe Penelope has egg yolk peritonitis. The egg material stuck in her may have worked it's way into her abdominal cavity. It would make sense with her prior diagnosis. You are doing the right thing if it is - just add antibiotic. If you don't have any Baytril or your vet doesn't have any, I could overnight you some! I did a "cut and paste" of an Egg Yolk peritonitis article:

Septic Yolk Stroke
Septic yolk stroke occurs when bacteria are present. More common than non-septic yolk stroke, it causes severe abdominal inflammation, congestion, scarring, and the adhesion (abnormal union) of all abdominal organs.

Signs of Septic Yolk Stroke
Signs of septic yolk stroke include abdominal swelling, respiratory distress, depression, loss of appetite, and even sudden death.

Treatment of Septic Yolk Stroke
Treatment includes heat, fluids, antibiotics, and high protein foods. Surgery removes pus and infected yolk material. Pet birds undergoing surgery usually receive a hysterectomy at the same time, which prevents the disease from recurring. (In lieu of surgery, hormones can help prevent reoccurrences)

Read more: Yolk Stroke in Birds | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_6319070_yolk- ... z1MINp2FXg

[Raleighwheels]

I'm so glad she is liking the baby food . Maybe Penelope has egg yolk peritonitis. The egg material stuck in her may have worked it's way into her abdominal cavity. It would make sense with her prior diagnosis. You are doing the right thing if it is - just add antibiotic. If you don't have any Baytril or your vet doesn't have any, I could overnight you some! I did a "cut and paste" of an Egg Yolk peritonitis article:

Septic Yolk Stroke
Septic yolk stroke occurs when bacteria are present. More common than non-septic yolk stroke, it causes severe abdominal inflammation, congestion, scarring, and the adhesion (abnormal union) of all abdominal organs.

Signs of Septic Yolk Stroke
Signs of septic yolk stroke include abdominal swelling, respiratory distress, depression, loss of appetite, and even sudden death.

Treatment of Septic Yolk Stroke
Treatment includes heat, fluids, antibiotics, and high protein foods. Surgery removes pus and infected yolk material. Pet birds undergoing surgery usually receive a hysterectomy at the same time, which prevents the disease from recurring. (In lieu of surgery, hormones can help prevent reoccurrences)

Read more: Yolk Stroke in Birds | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_6319070_yolk- ... z1MINp2FXg

Thanks so much for the article! At the moment, I don't have any Baytril on hand, and neither does the vet. I was hoping to use my paycheck from work to get some before she got sick, but she beat me to it. Do you think that she could last until I am able to order some?