Petition for Gouldian Mills

[CandoAviary]

This petition towards the NFSS and The AACC has been circulating for a while and thought I would post it here for anyone that wants to try and bring more attetion to this cause. I, myself support Ron Cloutier's views and signed the petition...
Though I feel that neither the NFSS nor the AACC have much control whatsoever over careless breeding, fostered raised, finch mills... I think that it is the breeder's who need to be concious on breeding only the strongest goulds. I also think the buying public should support the quality breeders and stop buying less than birds just because of the lower prices... doesn't mean you can't get a quality bird for less, just isn't the norm.
Many breeders , on most all the forums pertaining to gouldians, have been complaining of sickly birds and the bad parenting skills of the gouldians in their breeding rooms. Complaining about the mass losses of fledglings and the prices being driven to an all time low. Some have blamed over medicating, others improper breeding of head colors to mutations to inbreeding.
I believe it is some of all of the above. Many breeders, even the ones that know better, sell their less than desirable offsprings and the problems simply spreads.
So many new gouldian keepers have no idea what a quality gouldian is... I believe that a quality gouldian is one that lives a minimum of 7 years and can raise their young successfully without half of them dying before they color up.
I also think once you acheive this you also will have good size, color, and conformation... inside health seems to go along with outside beauty. That's my breeding goal anyway.
Here is the link to the petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/ ... ?gldhelp&1

[6finchfriends]

Candace- are there bird mills like puppy mills around? i don't want to sound stupid but I am definitely ignorant of this problem. How can you tell if you aren't buying from a breeder? Pet stores are the only option for some people. Are all birds sold in chain pet stores from that kind of breeding? I'm wondering because (around here) the chain stores always have a steady supply of birds from the same breeder (Barney's) and there are hundreds of these pet stores in Washington alone. So the SPCA doesn't treat these bird mills like puppy mills? Thanks for the information. Ya know, I tried to find Barney's on the internet and couldn't find any information. You'd think a breeding set up that huge would have something about it.

[L in Ontario]

Candace- are there bird mills like puppy mills around? i don't want to sound stupid but I am definitely ignorant of this problem.

Yes there are; more than we know.

I think they, including Ron Cloutier, should make public all the names and locations of the bird farms and mills.

I do not think there is anything the NFSS and AACC can do about them however - they have no legal jurisdiction as far as I know. They are simply associations. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[debbie276]

I thought regulating these things was the job of Fish and Game and/or the ASPCA?
NFSS and AACC are only bird clubs that is not mandatory to join. How would they be able to do anything? And honestly, they should police their own somehow. Just because it has a NFSS band doesn't make it a better bird, they have no idea what birds are getting banded.
JMO

[Sally]

This petition is well-intentioned, but those two organizations have no legal means to go after bird mills. Even the ASPCA or Humane Society couldn't do anything unless the birds are kept in inhumane conditions. The only way to change things is to educate the public, and that is something those two organizations could work toward.

As far as banding, I doubt that these bird mills bother with banding. Why should they go to the expense and trouble of banding birds when they can sell them just as easily without bands?

You will always have the ones who just don't care, who breed sibling to sibling, cross breed, whatever it takes to produce numbers to sell.

[cindy]

I agree Sally...petitions like this circulate for dog mills also. Some breeders are policed to a point, some operate under the radar but in reality these typye of facilities will always exist. Even if shut down and the birds rescued there are things to consider such as places for the birds, medical care, food and the funds to care for them all need to be thought out carefully. During the downfall of the economy dog rescues and shelters were filled to the max. During raids on puppy mills rescues, foster homes and shelters were called upon to take the dogs in. Medical cost, food and shelter are all costly, not only for agencies, rescues groups but funds were coming out of peoples' pockets. Budgets stretched.

Wanting to shut bad bird breeders down is a noble cause but it takes money and manpower to do, agencies can not afford to police everyone, especially with budget cuts...really what they will look at is adequate shelter, food, clean water. They are not going to police inbreeding or poor stock, unless there is a good amount of dead or sickly birds....then they will approach it from a disease and health aspect. A warning will be given and followed up on and the breeder will continue the business.

Sally is right, it is the educated consumer that will help shut these breeders down. Take their businees away from them by buying from reputable breeders only. If you buy from a store, don't be afraid to ask where they get their birds. Chain stores like PetSmart usually have one facility they deal with. Again you are not told it they are related birds or not so be aware.

[CandoAviary]

Candace- are there bird mills like puppy mills around? i don't want to sound stupid but I am definitely ignorant of this problem. How can you tell if you aren't buying from a breeder? Pet stores are the only option for some people.

Sadly, yes.
But taking action against bird mills can be difficult. As a general rule birds have less protection than other pets, although parrot mills have been successfully shut down on animal abuse charges. As pointed out organizations cannot do this but they can bring attention and the 'heat' on these facilities. Much like the ASPCA has brought the attention of the puppy miils to the public (the education part) and once the public quits buying them, then these places will fold... also they may become inspected more often for acceptable conditions by health and fish & wildlife authorities.

The size of a breeding facility does not necessarily make it a bird mill. How the birds are treated determines whether or not a facility is a bird mill. While many bird mills are large scale commercial affairs, there are also small scale breeders who run small bird mills. On the flip side there are some commercial breeders who truly care for their bird who feed, house, and breed their birds properly.
What seperates the 2 is the bad breeders/facilities breed the same birds year round forcing the hen into exhaustion, the eggs are simply given to other birds to raise. Foster City ! They do not rest the birds. They do not band the birds or family identify the birds so much inbreeding takes place. Inbred birds tend to be weak birds.
So even small breeding hobbyist can fall into this catagory Some just don't seem to understand about the birds that are producing in their aviaries. And buyers just don't stop to think if they are actually buying brother and sister Or for that matter, a youngster from a brother and sister How do you know? How do they know? Ask for records.... Planned/controlled breeding have records. Unplanned... don't.
Responsible breeders/facilities allow birds to reproduce naturally without fostering the species under other species. (not referring to fostering in cases of emergency) They are also then allowed rest or are sold to the pet trade. Many of the small bird fair breeders fall under this category. They sell their retired breeders or the young that they are not keeping for the next years breeding... so unless the birds you are buying are closed banded with the date and the proper size for gouldians "D" then you may be buying older birds that have been bred. This is not a bad thing... a proven bonded pair can be a wonderful place for a newbie to begin with. But you must know the background of these birds.
What I recommend is to get to know your breeder and buy from someone you trust and not only will pick the right age bird for you but be available for advice down the road. Most big chain pet stores can not offer that. Look for small specialty pet stores who are knowledgable and care about the pets they sell. Meet breeders in your area. You can find them at bird marts, avian clubs, and bird boards.
Be cautious of any ebay classifieds, hoobly's, craig's list because anyone can list there..... Comes down to doing your research and knowing the questions to ask.. and the answers that are given. I always ask breeders that I am considering to buy from a few simple questions about the species... If they say they don't know or give me a generic answer then I know their interest is $ and not the species. I ask anyone I am selling to pertaining to possible broker or hosts of bird marts what the requirements are for selling to them. If they don't require the legal papers to be filled out or look the other way when you don't have your liscenses in order then I avoid them. My thoughts are if they skirt those mandatory issues then what else are they skimping on.... just to save a $$$
6finchfriends,
I am so glad you asked..... their is no shame in not knowing, this is where my stance on educating begins. Most animal lovers will do the right thing once they know what the right thing is.....
That is why I posted this petition in hopes that people would read and learn what the best thing to do for not only the abused breeding of the gouldians but all birds and animals.

Here is a link to get you started on your research... this is a Parrot spot as the parrot owners have been trying to resolve this problem far longer than the finch owners. I have seen the Today Show runs segments on these places periodically. Wish Dave Hansen would expose these places... now that would get some attention!
http://www.parrotchatter.com/f18/petsma ... 10672.html

Remember we are all responsible for the birds we keep and the young they produce. So for the birds sake... know where they are coming from and where they are going to. This value is so deep in me that I am opening a specialty small bird store... not because I have to work, not because I need to make a living... but in hopes of helping people learn of good bird husbandry and to be able to offer quality products for them. But it is mostly because I want to do the responsible thing and try and find the birds I breed the best homes possible, with continued support for the new owner. I am most passionate about their welfare

[CandoAviary]

This petition is well-intentioned, but those two organizations have no legal means to go after bird mills. Even the ASPCA or Humane Society couldn't do anything unless the birds are kept in inhumane conditions. The only way to change things is to educate the public, and that is something those two organizations could work toward.

Yes, education is the key.... exactly. I think this is the point of the petition. I also think what they are trying to do is get the NFSS and AACC to help with the education.....
for example I would love to see a link or article on their sites addressing this issue. Maybe even a place to donate so that funds could be collected to help police (via the proper channels) the known mills..... or a letter sent to each new members addressing the clubs desired views on breeding/resting/fostering/housing, etc. that fall under responsible ownership... I know they promote responsible bird ownerhip but many haven't a clue to what that really means... so tell them. These 2 organizations could reach many big and small birders with just a little education given on their sites or via their mailings......
I think many organizations refrain from speaking out (like me) because they are afraid that it will offend someone. In my opinion, these 2 organizations are mostly there to organize shows, sell bands, connect fellow birders. But they could educate without having to take on the police role that is not what they are design to do. I think this is what Ron is trying to achieve... education and what better channel than the clubs and organizations we join

[cindy]

It all basically comes down to an educated buyer....whether it be birds, dogs, cats, etc. It is all up us to help educate those that do not know. We may never be able to stop the "bad breeders" of birds or other animals but we can certainly help take a big bite out of their business by educating and not buying from stores that they sell to or buying directly from them.

[6finchfriends]

Thanks for all the information everyone. I am always interested in things I am ignorant about. We have 2 rescue parrots so I know about their plight. In my opinion people should keep (large) parrot breeding to a minimum and only for preservation. The small private owned parrot store I buy food from and where we got one of our rescues has decided to not sell any more baby parrots. She now only re-homes rescues. We live in a small town and even so, she has 1-3 rescues dropped off to her every WEEK! I am concerned about the plight of all birds, wild and caged. Unfortunately where I live there are few finches to purchase so I am tempted to buy from Petsmart/Petco when I see Orange Cheeks or CB's but I don't. Like you said, they are probably siblings or mill birds and I can tell you, though new to Finches, I know much more than the store clerks! Drives me crazy! They don't know anything about them. It's easier to tell that the Societies are from the same clutch if they all look like carbon copies but most people don't know enough to ask. I asked once and the clerk said... "Maybe, But we don't have any say what birds come to our store. They just get sent here". Sigh.
I am thinking the bird mills are not a problem up here but in warmer states where you can have outdoor or large year round aviaries, it would be a big problem. I will continue educating myself.

[MRobinson]

Trish,

I asked at the local Petsmart here and was told they were contracted for getting their birds from Birds Express. I don't know if that helps you any but since they are a large chain I would imagine all of them operate on the same contracts.

[wellingtoncdm]

It all basically comes down to an educated buyer....whether it be birds, dogs, cats, etc. It is all up us to help educate those that do not know. We may never be able to stop the "bad breeders" of birds or other animals but we can certainly help take a big bite out of their business by educating and not buying from stores that they sell to or buying directly from them.

This sounds like the most logical first step.

[cindy]

It all basically comes down to an educated buyer....whether it be birds, dogs, cats, etc. It is all up us to help educate those that do not know. We may never be able to stop the "bad breeders" of birds or other animals but we can certainly help take a big bite out of their business by educating and not buying from stores that they sell to or buying directly from them.

This sounds like the most logical first step.

It is one of the things that we concentrate on in King Charles Cavalier Rescue. Educating the buyer to be aware of back yard breeders, brokers and mills. The on-line dog breeders from some of the puppy on line sites can be seen with sometimes up to ten different breeds advertising puppy after puppy, some looking so sick. It is obvious they are not a little homey type breeder but a mill.

There was a bill (still sits on the books to go up for a vote and has been for alomsot 2 years now) that was to limit the amount of dogs you could own, how you shelter them, when to spay them, it goes on and on with all sorts of regulations. It casued a great deal of upsetment within the responsible breeders, those that raised show dogs and quality puppies...they did not want the dogs in whelping boxes in separate buildings during breeding. They wanted the dogs in the home with them, puppies well socialized. They did not want to be told that if they wanted to keep the puppies and it exceeded the number of dogs you were allowed to keep you would have to sell the puppies. The bill was directed more for mills but unfortunately it would also include the responsible breeder who cared. The bill has never been brought up for a vote, the longer the bill sits on the books the likely hood of it being passed gets slimmer and slimmer.

To police, confiscate, house, feed animals/birds from those that did not comply would be costly. The manpower alone to police this and care for the animals would also be costly and would (if the bill passed) fall within the all ready strapped counties and governmental agencies. Guess were the funding would come from if handled through the counties or governmental agencies...taxes!

Passing any bill to regulate or control pets such as birds, dogs, cats is a very touchy subject. Our best course of action is education and making the public aware of bad breeders and directing them towards good responsible breeders.

[atarasi]

You're always going to have people who will buy puppies from pet shops without asking the correct questions. When I bred and showed Basenjis, people contacted me from a breeder referral list and couldn't understand why they couldn't pick their own puppy. One lady contacted the AKC to officially file a complaint against me because I refused to sell her a puppy. From the average consumer who only wants a cute puppy, it's a turn off and so some will do what's easier and buy from a puppy milll supplied pet shop. I can definitely see both sides.

I'd say most people who buy from pet shops to purchase birds do it on an impulse. They don't necessarily do any research and so you're always going to have a demand from bird mills. Once you've been burned, you'll do the research later. Even going to a bird mart doesn't guarantee you're dealing with a responsible breeder/broker.
Just my 2 cents.

[cindy]

Jordan...long story short...we bought a ruby cavalier from a couple that had cavaliers, one of the dogs were pregnant and he also had a ruby mother on the property. It was not until I wanted to buy a tri from them a year later did I find out our girl was not their puppy. The wife slipped up and told me where the dogs come from. I was horrified. Cali was a mill puppy and I started to dig, found out she came from a mill breeder that also had property in another state besided Missouri. They also advertised heavily multiple breeds on the web on many puppy sites.

The dog mills are inspected by the Dept of Agriculture and USDA (there are lists on a USDA site of anyone holding a USDA license (the dogs usually from these breeders do not have the AKC certification but things like ACA)...I called them to see what can be done...there is not much they can do unless there is extreme neglect. They do inspect and follow up. They make a list of things like a leaky roof in a building, cage size, how many dog in a cage, water food. Citations are given and followed up on. It is a very touchy legal situation. If you suspect a mill you can call the Dept of AG or the USDA and they can point you in the right direction to file a complaint, one of them even read me the violations and how they were corrected by the mill Cali came from. There is not a whole lot that can be done about the driver that collects the puppies up from people and the broker unless there is true neglect and animal abuse.

The only thing people can really do is not buy from the stores or brokers that get their birds and dogs from mills....Petland is one of them. There are sites you can pull up on pet stores that have had to be shut down,, had multiple violations. The Petland near us shut completely down, the one closer to Tampa is still up and running and I have heard not so good things about them.

I don't think the Dept of AG oversees the bird end of it but I can not be certain of that. I do believe Fish and Wildlife has control over it. But neglect is neglect. With stores the place to start is your states Dept of AG.

Our second cavalier came from an AKC breeder with a good reputation. People need to beware of all the pretty little sites where brokers posing as the original owners have pretty little websites, fluff the puppies up even decorate them and the backgrounds to draw customers in. It is not to say all are bad, buyers just need to ask a ton of questions.

I hope AKC stood behind you for being selective about where your puppies went to.