UPDATE ON FINCH DEATHS

[finchmix22]

For those who were following my two threads about the three finches that died last week of unknown causes. We got back the cultures and labs from stool samples, etc. All tests were normal and no signs of bacteria, fungus, air sac mites or infections of any kind!! I can't believe this. Three finches died and there is no reason we can pinpoint. One finch the vet felt died from stress at her office, but the two rccb's dies at our house and had wet and swollen vents with gooey and white , sticky pooh and were straining just prior to their deaths. We found dried egg food at the vent area that smelled rotten, so we thought they had eaten some bad eggfood that had been left or fell on the floor or something. We wonder why no other birds were sick and then later last week an OCW had wet vent and another OCW got very weak and was not able to perch. I treated them both for ASM and Cocciodosis as those were the two likely suspects and they have gotten better. But we sent samples from those two and some from each flight to be tested and all came back normal!! Any thoughts?? I just want to make sure the finches are really healthy and this is not a fluke or bad lab testing?? Thanks.

[cindy]

Deborah did they do any blood samples?

[finchmix22]

Cindy,
I don't think so. Another friend of mine who used to breed finches and parrots suggested I send off my own birds, whole, to the Texas A&M Vet lab for analysis next time as she feels the vets only send tissue samples and the whole bird is examined if one sends it to this lab. IDK. Too late now though.

[cindy]

Deborah...if this continues I would follow your friend's advice. My vet did samples drew blood. My African Gray had to be monitored regularly...his bood level and all kinds of test were run. I knew his nutrition was an issue and keeping him stable, he was on pellets after weaned and got fruits, veggies...good thing...all his test came back as far a nutriton went all very good. Blood work, droppings, throat cultures, even feathers were sent off every yr. Perhaps call the plae your friend recommends and ask if they can help.

[monotwine]

Did you treat any of your birds for the above mentioned prior to sending off the samples?

Just glad you not experiencing any more deaths. Perhaps it will always be one of these "unknown" causes...

[finchmix22]

The samples were taken prior to giving meds. So, that would not interfere with tests. We may never really know, but the vet believes we were dealing with a bacterial gut infection that was probably caused by the food or environment. We are not sure what but her guesses were either the two rccb's ate something that was spoiled or picked up a bacteria in their water or food or something that effected them only and not the whole cage. The other OCW's that appeared sick are doing better and have recovered some and are more alert and on their perches again. I'm keeping them in quarantine the rest of this week, until all meds are done (antibiotic for 7 days). Then I'll follow with Probiotic to make sure they adjust back to a healthy gut. I hope that is all that is required.
The main issue I took away from this is how important it is to really inspect food and water dishes, cage grating and anything else that could carry a contaminant, as some birds will eat it, either by accident or because they don't realize it is unsafe. When we get to the point of having more than a couple of flights, we must be more diligent and work harder to keep their environment and food as healthy as possible. I think we may have not paid attention to little things on the side of the grates or edges of the cage, except for the times we took the cages apart to clean them, but weekly cleanings only invovled changing paper towels, perches, and washing water/food dishes. Now, I am cleaning each cage fully, if I see something that does not belong, just to make sure. We were told by the vet to only leave out fruit/veggies/eggfood for no more than two hours and remove it, to decrease the chance of spoilage or the beginnings of bacteria growth, as some finches will still eat or peck at those foods, especially young ones.

[cindy]

Deborah...the two hour time for leaving veggies and eggfood out is a good idea especially with the heat lately. As soon as for starts to become warm it starts to spoil long before it actually looks and smells spoiled.

I was talking to my husband about this and said that if you leave food out that can get warm enough to spoil you would not risk giving it to your child so why take a chance with your birds..all it takes is a tiny bit of bacteria growth to create a health issue. We used the same rule when we had our Gray....all people food like fruit and veggies were left out no more than 30 minutes and never fed inside the cage but on the flat play area where it was easily cleaned up. Same advice was give by our avian vet.

[CandoAviary]

Wow, That is weird how nothing showed up. Sometimes a sample will not have the culprit in it, or the sample has deteriorated past the prime time, or mistakes are made in the staining/reading of the samples... but to have all the sample show nothing... weird.The frustrating thing is you will never know what the cause was Hope the rest of your flock are doing well

[finchmix22]

I know it is weird to me too. I called the vet to double check and ask her what she thought. As I posted earlier, she was not too surprised. I, however, know I've had sick finches and I have treated them as I diagnose their symptoms myself. I just don't see what the vet offers if I am doing the work? LOL. She did identify the scaly face on one OCW, but my daughter had to bring it up regarding what we should do about that, or she would not have said anything to us. I will probably be sending my own samples to the Texas A&M Vet Lab in Bryan Texas, for analysis. They apparently are very good and well respected. That way I can assure myself that all finches truly are well and we did not miss anything.

[monotwine]

It is weird that nothing showed up in the tests.

A steep learning curve, but now you can trust yourself with diagnosing something like this again. Or in the very least being able to recognise it if it rears its ugly head again and then allow you to get samples off to a lab before it escalates.

Glad the rest of your finches are improving their health.

[L in Ontario]

Frustrating indeed. This not finding anything doesn't help you to decide on any further/future treatment at all. This is why I don't take any finches to vets anymore (sorry to say that) - they have not been overly helpful when I did; although they sure did try! Hopefully the Texas A&M Lab will give some kind of results you can actually use.

[cindy]

Liz, I think it also depends on the vet....mine takes ever sample imaginable. She is spot on everythime. Then again it took 5 vets (this was started before we moved to where we are living now) to diagnose my Shih Tzu as to why he was having seizures starting at age three.

It was not until he was 8 when one vet said he needed to be put down, I left that practice and went to the one our daughter now work for...she ran a blood panel and said the dog had Cushings, confirmed by an exray of his liver and heart and brain. The tumor on the pituitary gland was the size of a golfball. He was started on treatments to shrink the tumor and he lived for another 4 yrs.

Deborah, the only ones effected may have been the ones that were ill or passed. So it had to have been something that they only had eaten or been exposed to and for some reason could not handle it as well as the other. I am just glad that you have not had anymore losses and things are calming down some.

[L in Ontario]

Liz, I think it also depends on the vet....

Deborah, the only ones effected may have been the ones that were ill or passed. So it had to have been something that they only had eaten or been exposed to and for some reason could not handle it as well as the other. I am just glad that you have not had anymore losses and things are calming down some.

I agree 100%, Cindy!

[cindy]

Liz, there are good ones out there and then there are GOOD ones!!

(Frustrating trying to find answers, and to think in the case of our dog it to the right blood test and xrays....not diet food. Cushings causes the gland to produce extra growth hormones that enlarged the heart and liver giving the dog a fat tummy.)

[CandoAviary]

It is extremely hard to find a great avian vet...much less one that knows much about finches... pretty much if something doesn't show up in the poop via microscope or stain then you are left clueless....
I bought a microscope and am learning how to recognize stuff on a daily basis... Amazing how different the poop can look with just what they are eating
There are some great sites on poopology with some good experts at this stuff who will share all that they know You may want to buy a scope if this kind of stuff interest you