foster preparation

[nixity]

I hate to be a debbie downer here but there are many successful breeders who do not "preventively" treat their birds with anything before breeding.
Quarantine is a different ballgame, of course.

STGF treats their birds either quarterly or bi-annually with Ronivet (perhaps a wormer as well) but these birds are in outdoor facilities where they could be exposed to these organisms.
Indoor seed eating birds, like Gouldians, who are not eating live food, run very little risk of contracting intestinal parasites unless they're brought in by an introduced bird who hasn't been treated in quarantine.

Sure - if you've never wormed your birds in the past, then a worming treatment "just to be sure" is not a big deal, but I don't consider a necessary part of your pre-breeding routine unless you're keeping your birds in outdoor aviaries.

And "preventive" treatment is a misnomer because the only medicines that are really preventive would be cocci-care (or any other coccidiostat like cocci-vet) and SCATT - all of the others mentioned (Worm Away, Amoxitex [yikes! I never would suggest treating birds with an antibiotic that aren't ill!], and Ronivet/Ronex) won't do anything unless the birds are actually infected with something. Which means that if they aren't: a) you're treating them unnecessarily which is extremely taxing on their tiny livers and also on your wallet and b) you could potentially be creating more problems by making it more difficult for medicines to effectively treat them in the future if and when they do get sick.

When bringing in new birds, obviously I recommend quarantine, but after that, I try to avoid medicating for things unless I suspect a problem.
Before breeding, depending on the species, there are things you can do nutritionally and evironmentally to stimulate a successful breeding season without requiring medication.

In terms of fostering, I agree 100% with what Debbie said. You need to test the fosters first, if you have widespread nestling or fledgling loss that is otherwise unexplained, scrap the birds from your foster program. Either sell them to someone who doesn't plan on using them to foster or simply retire them in your home and get new birds from someone breeding the foster birds and fostering birds in their own home without issue.
It is not advisable to pump medications into foster birds in order to get them to successfully foster without loss - all you're doing is weakening the pool by immuno suppressing the chicks, as well as possibly maturation issues due to liver problems from all the processing of medications at such a young age.

But.. that's just my two cents.

[lovemyfinch]

I have to agree with Tiffany`s 2 cents. I have stayed out of these types of conversations, just to keep the peace But, medicating our birds, just for the sake of it, seems to me to be a little drastic. I see it the same as giving my children cough syrup, just because they were playing with another child that has a cold. This is definately not going to help them, only weaken their immune system for when they really need it. IMHO

[cindy]

Tiffany what if using a preventative for parasites especially if you know or don't know the questionable background of the fosters/parents....isn't it better to stunt the parasite in the parent before they pass it onto the young who do not have good immune responses to such parasites/organisms and either die in the nest or months afterwards?

[nixity]

Not in my opinion, in my opinion it's better to not treat the fosters at all.

I know Laraine's opinion on this is that in the fosters it's difficult if not impossible to completely eradicate cochlosoma which is the protozoal infection that the Ronivet is for (Campylobacter I'm not sure about, I don't know if once you treat it it goes away completely. I know it's treated with Erithromycin which you CAN'T give to the fosters once they have nestlings because it causes developmental/growth problems in the babies).

That means that if your decision is to proactively "treat" the fosters with Ronivet, you have to treat them the entire time they are feeding the fostered babies, which means for approximately the first 3 months - the most important months, really, they are getting a constant dose of medication as they're developing. IMO this weakens the immune system, it doesn't strengthen it.

And if you do this the first time you foster, you have to do it every single time, because you've never "tested" the fosters to see if they're in fact carriers.

It is best to "test" them with a species susceptible to these wet diseases (like a Gouldian chick) and if you can't get the babies to successfully wean without heavy loss, the fosters are likely not clean and need to just be removed.

[debbie276]

I totally agree with Tiffany, Laraine and Janine.
Quarantine is totally different then fostering in my opinion.
Your fosters should be able to hatch out and raise the chicks without any medicine or be removed from your program.

[cindy]

I do agree not to medicate prior to fostering unless something is suspect...it is to be done as a precaution prior to removing the birds from quarantine when they are first brought home. If these birds were bought solely for the purpose of fostering they should be quarantined and treated pre-fostering and then rested well before allowing them to foster.

Many adult birds hide the parasites until weakened and if you don't know their origin or conditions they lived in then yes take preventive measures. If the birds were bought/given to you and you know their origin and conditions prior to you buying them (over crowding, not so clean environment) or they are imports having been in quarantine facilities, or from a broker that had them brought in from out of state then yes of course treat accordingly during quarantine....basically you are just saying do not treat prior to fostering if treatment has been done in quarantine. I agree with that. Not to treat in quarantine if unsure in my opinion is taking a chance.

Tiffany I can't for some reason find you quarantine steps you posted earlier this year...do you still have them? Could you post that for us. It was very helpful.

[6finchfriends]

I don't think I knew the right thing to ask for. Sorry for the confusion of my question. I have never treated my Zebras or Societies since they came from the same breeder so they never went through quarantine. They were my first and only finches so far. Before I go to the small bird fair in Sept. (where I 'might' purchase a couple more finches) I want to put them through a quarantine treatment because I don't know what might be lurking. Some day the Societies 'might' foster and I wanted to make sure they are healthy too. Before I bought them they were in an outdoor aviary in the summer only so they might have worms etc. I don't know. I know his flock were tested for the C every year because he also raises finches that would perish if this was present. In the winter they were all put in large flight cages in side the house. He works so when he gets home the bath water is dirty etc. They very well could have something. I know everyone has a quarantine procedure. Some medicate, some don't. I just want to make sure my finches are pest free or as much as I can. I think better safe than sorry but I'm not an expert. I guess I should have said 'quarantine' instead of foster. Sorry. I just didn't quite know to explain it since my birds aren't 'new' birds.

[ac12]

Since you have not run your birds thru a quarantine procedure, that is something you might want to do. That will give you a known starting base of a good flock.

Even so, the one you won't know is the C&C diseases that societies could be a carrier of. That is why I keep my new societies separated until they successfully foster a gouldian chick to weaning. Hmmm but since you have the societies with other birds, if they have C&C it could have been spread to the others already.

I think C&C is spread thru feeding and watering dishes. So if you get gouldians, keep the food and water dishes separate so there is no cross-contamination.

[debbie276]

That is very responsible of you to quarantine now knowing that you probably will be bringing in more finches. Also, any future birds should go through a quarantine procedure before being put near your existing birds.

Do let us know what kind you get if you get any more in Sept.

[cindy]

Let me ask this...if you plan to raise gouldians with societies as a foster could you see if they are clean by letting them foster a zebra chick?

I am still debating the whole getting gouldian thing. I have zebras, a few pairs are wonderful and foster well, can you use them as fosters for gouldians to?

[6finchfriends]

Thank you all very much. I will order the suggested quarantine meds. and set them up for quarantine procedure since I didn't do it when I first brought them home. Yes, I was planning on quarantine for any incoming finches as well. When I purchased them in March I didn't understand quarantine like I do now. The breeders flock where I purchased the finches is tested for the C&C every year so I'm 99% sure they wouldn't have it since I've never introduced an outside bird. Like you say, there is only one way to tell so I'll have to wait until they are needed, if ever.

[6finchfriends]

Cindy, I know Gouldians aren't the only birds that can perish from C&C but I don't think Zebras are one of them. I'm not 100% sure though.

[cindy]

I believe zebras can get it
http://www.susanclubb.com/pdfs/zebrafinch.pdf
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also refer to the guide I posted on antoher topic, go to page 1183 then to page 1189
http://www.avianmedicine.net/ampa/43.pdf
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http://books.google.com/books?id=6nngRl ... es&f=false

Page 145 left hand column.

[6finchfriends]

Thanks once again Cindy! There is so much i don't know. It boggles the mind. That makes me feel loads better since my Zebras were raised by the same societies I have now. Maybe not the exact ones but from the same flock of Societies.

[cindy]

You are welcome Trish.