Increasingly aggressive male zebra.

dinosaur party · Post by **dinosaur party** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:47 pm

Hi all! I come bearing yet another question, but I'm fairly certain I'm not just being paranoid this time...

When I got home from work today and checked on my finches (2 male zebras) I could only spot one (Henry) right away... Closer inspection revealed the second finch (Chester) cowering behind a toy on the floor of the cage

As I neared the cage, Chester freaked out a little and flew up onto one of the perches, and immediately, Henry flew over and started pecking him right in the face. Chester would just sit there, occasionally opening his beak as if to squawk, but not making any noise, and not even attempting to fight back. This went on for a moment, then he flew across the cage, but Henry went right after him, and seems to be chasing him around the cage non-stop.

I gave them some fresh millet, and it distracted Henry long enough for Chester to resume his position on the bottom of the cage, but every time he tries to fly back up to one of the perches or to a food dish, Henry chases him around again for a bit before he goes back to the millet. I feel awful for Chester, as Henry is becoming a bit relentless in harassing him

I've had these birds for just over 5 months. They were both very timid and paranoid when I first got them, but Henry quickly perked up, becoming a lot braver. Chester still scares very easily though... And while Henry always seemed a little more dominant than Chester, he's never been aggressive like this. In the past few days, Henry has been much more vocal, and my dad says they've been chasing each other around quite a bit. I've had a look through some old posts, and on the Finch Info site, and while I've got some basic ideas as to what might be causing this and what I can do about it, I'm not quite sure where to start.

All of their perches are at the same height, and there isn't any nesting material available to them. The cage is roughly 2 feet in width and height (a little bit taller than it is wide), and maybe a foot and a half in depth. The only thing I can think of that's different today compared to yesterday is that I moved their cuttlebone up higher, as they NEVER use it (I move it each time I clean the cage, hoping that one day they might take interest in it. (Actually, it looks like one of them has finally figured out what to do with the thing, as there's some obvious wear on it now. FINALLY.)) I'm going to try to pick up a bird pacifier tomorrow, but so far, I've found practically every toy I give them does nothing but scare them half to death

I've got a spare cage I could put one of them in if I need to, but I've got no idea how I would manage to get just one of them into it. Whenever I need to move them from cage to cage, I just open the doors, put them next to each other, and place a blanket or towel over the cage I don't want them in anymore, making sure that it covers the space above the doors so they can't escape. I figure I'm going to have to physically grab one of them, but every time I've tried that in the past, I've been unsuccessful. Does anyone have any tips for catching a finch?

Sorry that this got so long, I just want to make sure I'm explaining everything the best that I can. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks

hilljack13 · Post by **hilljack13** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:08 pm

At first thought it sounds like the more aggressive male has claimed territory. I thought maybe you should put each one in smaller cages side by side. Then I thought, you might consider introducing another bird. Put the aggressive one, Henry, in the single cage and add another male with Chester. If you do go this route make sure you study the birds at the store for awhile, maybe drop in every two days or so and see which ones appear to be the most calm. After a few weeks you can try to introduce Henry back to the cage.

beccafigs · Post by **beccafigs** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:42 pm

I also have a very aggressive male finch. I don't have a surefire solution to your problem, but I would suggest strongly that you separate them. In my experience even a larger cage doesn't fix the problem with a truly mean male. When it comes to catching them, the only tip I have is to try not to stress them too much, (although my zebs take stress far better than my societies, they do try to bite me though), and try to keep them from flying out past your arm. It's hard enough nabbing them in the cage, let alone when they are all over your home (in my case with vaulted ceilings to boot).

My experience:

I started with two male zebra finches in a small flight cage (18x18x30). At first things were fine but as they started to settle in and feel that was their own space Firecracker started to be a bully. He was plucking feathers, chasing Fattycakes all over and harassing him constantly. I had started out giving them a nest and they would cuddle in it, and once Firecracker started to show his aggression he would defend his nest. Ever since if he gets anything he thinks has nest potential he will chase every other finch around to keep them away from him.

Then there was Whitey. I got one female thinking I would try to pair up the males up and separate them. I thought maybe if they bonded with the girls they would leave each other alone. I added Pepper, another hen, and left them in quarantine for a few weeks. I put the cages side by side before I connected them. Once they were all together the aggression subsided for a while, but it didn't take long for it to appear again.

A while later I got some societies and then my current large flight cage. When the zebras were introduced they left the societies alone and each type did their own thing. Again, in no time Firecracker started to harass anyone that came near the space the claimed for himself. After a while he started to get really mean again focusing primarily on the societies. I removed him yesterday, I had been in the kitchen and my neighbor was over and noticed that he was really distressing the male society. Once the chase was over getting Firecracker out in another cage the male society was so stressed he was under the heat lamp breathing rapidly and very heavily (he's ok now). I left them alone and watched them, and not an hour later Pepper (who initially had been a very sweet girl) started to chase the societies around as well. Then she got removed. Then I saw Fattycakes and Whitey doing it too. They have all been temporarily banished, but I know they have now all learned these bad habits from Firecracker.

I'm at my wits end now as to what to do. I can put the societies in a smaller cage alone and let them do their thing, but they love the space so much and I would feel guilty for punishing them for the zebras' bad behavior. The whole point of the big cage was to give them all more room so they would all get along, and eliminate the mess of cages all over. My husband has brought up the idea of getting rid of the zebras and getting more societies since they seem far more good natured, but I am hesitant to do that. I feel they are my responsibility and just giving them away would be giving up on them.

Now, I'm sorry if it seems like I am taking over your post, that's not my intention. Maybe the mistakes I've made will help keep you from making the same ones. Like getting more birds so everyone has a buddy-- in this case I ended up with a group of bullies, and having a nest for non breeding birds which I think intensified the aggressiveness. Hopefully your guy isn't always going to be the little bully he is now.

dinosaur party · Post by **dinosaur party** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:04 am

hilljack13 - would it be ok to have just three birds? I thought it was either two, or six, or I'd be asking for trouble... I'm a bit worried that it'd end up with two of them ganging up on the other one, and that would be extra not cool

Also, I think my mother would make me move out if I brought home another bird.

beccafigs - woah, sounds like you've got bigger issues than I do... That makes me very wary of adding new birds. I figure I'll try to get Henry out of there and into the spare cage for a few days, then put him back in when I've got a day off so that I can monitor them closely. I hope this is just like, a phase? Does that happen? Back when I first had them, Henry tried to make a nest in a tiny little treat cup, but he was never territorial about it... I have no way to attach it in the new cage, but he hasn't tried to build a new nest in anything that he's got in there.

Something I thought was odd tonight was that when I got home, Chester was up on one of the perches, and it was Henry hanging out on the grate at the bottom of the cage. It wasn't that Chester was bullying him though, as Henry would occasionally fly up and chase him around.. There is a "toy" with a millet spray down there... Do you think Henry would guard that? Seems kind of silly, because there is another millet spray hung beside the perch that Chester was sitting on...

Anyhow, I've got a Vision cage, so I can't do a whole lot of re-arrangement of the perches while Henry's out, but I'll switch up the food and water, and turn the whole cage physically, so that their little hidey corner (against an actual corner in the room) is in a new spot. I'm also giving them a preening-toy, and am gonna try introducing a new, additional perch. Do you think removing the grate at the bottom would make it seem different to them too? They used to like playing in the... bedding (haha I can't remember what I use!) in the old cage. Actually, Henry used to nab pieces of it and them in his nest for some reason

Thank you both for your comments

beccafigs · Post by **beccafigs** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:29 am

Some people have success removing the bully temporarily and reintroducing him as the "new guy." That may work for you, especially if you rearrange a bit. I hope it's a just phase for you too, that would be easier. There is nobody for Chester to bully so maybe he has learned that behavior, (in the mean time he's being tormented though), but if you bring on some newbies to the flock he may in turn bully them like my little bird turds.

Henry may well have been guarding the millet. Firecracker gets VERY territorial. All my zebs are banished from the huge flight cage now and now Firecracker is defending his favorite perching spot. I can seem him now in position to divebomb anyone that comes near him.

My birds all like to play in the bedding; they kick it up, eat it, forage in it... whatever. I don't know what a difference it would make for them. I bet Henry is just learning a bad habit to be a bully, but hopefully with an exile he will get taken down a notch.

My solution to my problem... I am ordering a new large-ish cage for the societies and I will just have them next to the zebras in the large flight cage. I feel bad that I will be moving them when they were being tormented in the first place, and I'm sure they will miss all the space they have now all to themselves... But in the long run they will be a lot happier without the little brats chasing them around like mean little kids. The big flight cage is large enough that if Firecracker goes back to bullying the other zebs they can at least get away easily enough; or HOPEFULLY he will just claim his little space and they can all have enough room that they stay out of "his" space. They are such meanies themselves that unless I see some serious bad behavior I will just make them figure out the pecking order themselves.

hilljack13 · Post by **hilljack13** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:44 am

You can have three to a cage without any problems. It all really depends on the personality of the bird. I have three males together, all related, and the youngest is always chasing dad and grandpa around. So not all the time you will have a 2 on 1, I have a 1 on two and the 1 always wins!!

Fancie Flight · Post by **Fancie Flight** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:42 pm

I didnt have time to real all of this I apologize, Especially if ya allready have your answer,
I woul dtry to remove the bully bird for say a week, If ya have another place for him, then reintroduce him after theres a new pecking order in the original cage and MAYBE he will be low man on the totem pole.

Animals have pecking orders and Well example my horses, lol I have to be careful if I remove 1 to long cause the one taken away has to fight for a place again,

Good luck

dinosaur party · Post by **dinosaur party** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:04 pm

Well, yesterday and today, Henry doesn't seem to be chasing Chester around anymore... They were actually cuddling up on the perch sleeping when I got home yesterday! Chester seems a lot more at ease, so I'm hoping they've worked out their little finchy problems

Henry is still acting a little strangely though... He keeps picking up feathers he finds and flying around the cage with them in his mouth. He also keeps breaking off parts of the millet and carrying those around too. Actually, right now, he's got a piece that's mostly just stem, about four inches long, and he's just sitting on a perch, holding it in his mouth. My dad said yesterday he was trying to pull the millet down from the top of the cage, but it's attached securely, so he'd just grab onto the end and try to fly, but would end up sorta swinging back and forth on it lol. It looks to me like he's trying to collect things to build a nest with... But then he'll fly around with them and realize there's no where to build the nest, so he just drops everything in a corner at the bottom of the cage. It's kinda funny to watch actually, as he just doesn't stop

Anyhow.

beccafigs - I hope everything works out for you and your finches. I'm sure the societies will be much happier when they don't have a bunch of little jerks terrorizing them

hilljack13 - I'll keep that in mind, but I'm only going to introduce another finch as a last resort. I'd feel really bad if I somehow make the situation worse.

Fancie Flight - I've only got the two birds right now, so there's not too much of a pecking order... Just Henry bothering Chester. He's actually behaving a lot better right now, so I'm only gonna remove him if he starts acting up again.

Thanks again for all the advice!

dinosaur party · Post by **dinosaur party** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:45 pm

Hmm... So it seems Henry's only on good behaviour when I'm home, because while I was at work yesterday, my mum said he was chasing poor Chester around again. She even tried to take him out of the cage, it got so bad, but she couldn't manage to do it.

It seems to me like Henry has claimed a corner of the floor of the cage to "nest" in. He collects feathers and pieces of millet and takes them down there (and they fall through the grate, so I don't know what he thinks he's accomplishing) and then he sits right down on the wires and just stays there. Until Chester does ANYthing, that it. Then he'll fly up and try to peck him in the face again

So, I've decided Henry's gotta come out. I've tried to get him twice already, but all I seem to be able to do is traumatize both him and Chester. I'm giving them a little break before I try again, but I don't really expect it to turn out better than any of my other attempts. I took the cages up to a small room so that if they get out, they can't get far. I turned the lights off and covered the windows, but that doesn't stop them from flying around when my arm is in the cage - they just fly into stuff. Actually, at one point, Chester landed on the back of my hand lol.

They're pretty quiet right now, just sitting together on a perch in the cage. I guess Henry's confused enough that he forgot about his so-called nest? I don't know. I'm gonna try to nab him again in the next hour, but if I can't, I figure I should leave them alone for the rest of the day. I feel bad for terrorizing them all morning.

dinosaur party · Post by **dinosaur party** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:49 pm

Oh, and I meant to ask...

Do you think Henry might be less of a jerk if I actually gave him something to nest in? Like, if he had an actual nest, and not just a vague space on the bottom of the cage? I'm pretending that if he had something to actually physically focus on then he's busy himself with that, and wouldn't get so worked up about Chester being around. I also like to pretend that if Chester can see the nest, he'll be able to figure out that he shouldn't get too close to it. Does any of this make any sense? Giving Henry something to make a nest in is maybe gonna be my backup plan for if I fail to get him out of the cage... Unless it's a really bad idea?

I'm so lost over here

beccafigs · Post by **beccafigs** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:20 pm

I think that if you add a nest for Henry he will get more aggressive. I made a lot of mistakes like that along the way with my boys.

I think just about everyhting I did made things worse.

dinosaur party · Post by **dinosaur party** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:15 pm

Well, my mum managed to get Henry out of the cage, so he spent the night in the spare cage... It's funny, because it seems like Chester misses him and has already forgotten how much of a jerk he was.

Anyhow, I'm gonna re-arrange the cage as much as I can before I put Henry back in... How long should I wait? They're separated right now, and they're just calling to each other non-stop. It's actually making me kinda sad... They seem so lonely

dinosaur party · Post by **dinosaur party** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:21 pm

Ok, so I put Henry back in the cage with Chester after 5ish days... And within an hour, he was back to chasing him around. He doesn't seem to be pulling any feathers, which I suppose is good... I was in a pet store recently and there was a poor little finchy guy there that was almost bald on the back of his head

Anyhow, I was wondering, if this behaviour does not stop, will I have to move Henry out for good? I'm not too keen on the idea of having to deal with 2 separate cages, but if I have to, then I will. Right now, Chester is just cowering in a corner on the bottom of the cage, but if he moves or makes any sound, Henry flies right at him and starts "biting" at him.

Is Henry just going to be a jerk forever now? Or is this aggression just a sort of phase that will pass? He can't be like, in "breeding mode" forever, right? I'm hopefully moving out sometime this year, and when I do, I plan to build an aviary and get more finches... Do you think Henry would continue to be a bully? I like to hope that with more birds, he might not be such a jerk. At the least I hope that he'll sorta split up the bullying, so that it's not always poor little Chester getting picked on.

Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone had any other suggestions. I'm gonna look for some fake plants to put in the cage, so that Chester will at least have more places to hide... But I worry that Henry will find any little hidey-hole type places and try to "nest" there. I haven't given them any sort of nesting material, but I caught him hanging out in one of the food dishes earlier, and he seemed a bit territorial about it. I just filled it up with a ridiculous amount of seed so that he couldn't sit in it anymore.

(Sorry this is so long and ramble-y. I'm just completely running out of ideas.)

Post by **Sally** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:29 am

Henry may just be an extremely aggressive finch--if so, he probably won't get better with time. He may be better in an aviary situation, but he will need to be monitored at first.

beccafigs · Post by **beccafigs** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:28 am

I agree with what Sally said, he sounds like he is just a bully and that is how he will stay. I think that's my problem too.

I wish I could offer more help but I'm in a similar situation.