Beak Color in Goulidan Males

[ranchnanny]

Recently traded for a male gouldian with an Orange head color and noticed its beak color was different having an orange/yellow tip versus my Red heads having a redish tip.

Does that have anything to do with the head color?

[bugaboo5]

Yes, precisely. Orange head = Orange tip. Red head = Red tip. Black heads split to Orange head = Orange tip, etc.

[ranchnanny]

So with young fledglings can you determine the head color by the beak is that right?

[debbie276]

The Finch Information Center has a very good genetic area. Here is the link to head color genetics. http://www.finchinfo.com/genetics/lady_ ... colors.php

Red tip = Red and Black Head
Yellow tip = Yellow Head
If the bird has a Yellow Tipped Beak (YTB) and a black head it is genetically a YH but doesn't have the red gene to show it.

FIC explanation:
If two yellow head genes are present on a bird that has no red head genes (and instead has black head genes), the bird will have a black head with a yellow tipped beak (YTB). This occurs because the bird is genetically a yellow headed bird, but it cannot express the yellow color because the yellow gene depends on the red head gene for expression, and the red head gene is not there.

A Black Head bird split to Yellow Head will have a red tipped beak.

[PrettyBird]

So my black head male gouldian has a red tip, so he must be split to red head

[debbie276]

So my black head male gouldian has a red tip, so he must be split to red head

All BH's have red tipped beaks regardless of any splits.

[PrettyBird]

Oh lol, theres contratdicting stories here. One says it will determine the split color, another says it doesnt...
whats the right answer? lol

[debbie276]

gouldian genetics explained:
http://www.finchinfo.com/genetics/lady_ ... /index.php

[nixity]

You can't determine if a bird is split for orange without knowing that it came from an OH parent or unless you breed it and produce OH offspring.

I think Kristen Reeves said you can tell split OHs by the color inside of the beak but I was never able to see what she was talking about - I think she sees in the UV spectrum maybe ;)

All kidding aside - there is really no reliable visual method to identifying any of the split genetics (orange head, white breast, blue body, etc.).

[PrettyBird]

I didnt think that sounded right either. Thanks debbie and nixity

[bugaboo5]

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was if a BH has parents who both have the orange head gene (both split for OH), the offspring with BH will have a yellow tip (YTB) as already mentioned. My mistake!

[ranchnanny]

Yikes! I read the articles and I have to say with all the references to split/rh/oh/bh/ytb/rtb and looking at the charts for breeding I am afraid I got lost at the bakery...... LOL!!!!

I don't think I will ever understand the genetics

I still want to thank all that responded to my question

[nixity]

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was if a BH has parents who both have the orange head gene (both split for OH), the offspring with BH will have a yellow tip (YTB) as already mentioned. My mistake!

But that's still confusing and not entirely accurate, because two /OH parents will not necessarily produce OH offspring. They can, but they might not.
Two splits will not always themselves produce either splits or the visual mutation.

It would be more accurate to say that two OH parents will produce all OH offspring, or a single OH parent will produce all /OH offspring. (Similarly, a BH YTB parent will produce at least all /OH offspring)

Two split to OH parents would produce (statistically) 25% OH, 50% split for OH and 25% that do not carry it all.
The 75% that do not encompass the 25% visual OH you won't be able to distinguish. Meaning - you can't determine the splits from the offspring that don't carry it at all.

BH YTB is just a genetically orange headed bird that only has black sex linked head color allele(s). The orange color needs the same pathways in tact as a red head in order to express it, and being genetically black that pathway is "broken" - so the color only comes through in the beak of the bird and not in the head feathers.

So - a BH YTB male paired to a visual OH hen would produce all visual OH (split for BH) sons but only BH YTB daughters.
A BH YTB hen paired to a visual OH male would produce visual OH (split for BH) sons and visual OH daughters.
Two BH YTB paired together would produce all BH YTB offspring.

[L in Ontario]

Following along the same line... sort of, I just removed two fully weaned juvie Gouldians from their parents cage this morning. One is a silver and the other is a yellow bodied bird. The yellow bodied bird has a orange tipped beak. Does this mean it is a BHYTB or could it possibly be a RHYTB. Can red heads show orange in their beak if they are split to orange head?

Parents of these two siblings are:
Cock = RH-B,WB,SFY/b
Hen = BHYTB,WB,YB/b (surprise on the hen being split to blue!!)

[nixity]

Nope - the beak color indicates the visual genetic head color, always. So a visual red head bird will never have an orange tipped beak, and vice versa.

But your yellow won't necessarily be BH because the father is RH/BH (evidently /OH too) - so the bird could either be BH YTB or Orange/Black head