Highly excessive water intake

[DCbeachboy]

Has anybody ever noticed one of their finches drinking water excessively and having several watery droppings each day over a long period of time -- yet otherwise seemingly very healthy and not showing any other signs of illness whatsoever?

I first noticed my young male Gouldian drinking MUCH water water than usual a few days before Christmas...around Dec. 21 or 22. He also began having 2-3 droppings daily that were mostly clear water -- very little if any solids (not at all surprising, given the extra water intake). Notably, in addition to these watery droppings, he also has normal-looking droppings every day, as well. Both the high water intake and watery droppings have continued rather consistently for the past 5 weeks.

There is nothing at all unusual about his behavior otherwise, other than the fact his hormones still seem to be in overdrive. His appetite is normal -- although for a few days in the beginning he seemed to be eating slightly less than normal, that hasn't been the case for the past month. Today he seems to be eating as much as he ever did. He is alert, active, and flies around the cage as much as always. And he is continually courting (and at times trying to mount) his mate -- and occasionally even his 3 chicks.

None of the other 4 birds in the cage with him have shown any of these symptoms, so whatever the culprit, it seems not to be microbial or they would have it, too. I took him to a vet a week and a half ago, and she found a higher-than-normal white blood cell count, leading her to think he may have a urinary tract infection. She dispensed oral antibiotic drops and I treated him with those for 10 days, but it made no difference at all. He is drinking as much (in fact, probably a little more) in recent days than before the treatment. Normally he will drink 2-3 sips of water at a time. When these symptoms began, he sometimes (not always) was drinking 8-10 sips at a time. But in recent days he sometimes will drink up to 12-16 sips at a time -- so it seems to be worsening, not improving. The vet sent off his droppings for gram-stain testing, and the results showed normal levels of bacteria -- nothing unusual at all. However, I suspect his high water intake may have diluted the bacteria count significantly -- so it may have appeared normal, when perhaps it wasn't.

The vet mentioned possible liver or kidney problems, but said he likely would be showing actual signs of illness by now if that were the case. At her suggestion, I've added some milk thistle seed extract to his diet, and now that his antibiotic treatment is over, I've also resumed adding some probiotics to their seed. I gave them probiotics for a week when these problems first began, and he seemed to drink slightly less water and have fewer watery droppings for a few days....but as quickly as I stopped the probiotics, the problems worsened again. I'm reluctant to do probiotics long-term, for more than a week at a time.

After researching avian kidney and liver ailments, I learned that in addition to microbes there are 2 other very common causes -- toxic items in their environment, and vitamin deficiency. I'm extremely careful about anything that goes into their cage, and avoid metal with lead or zinc. Any produce they get is organic, and I even wash that carefully in filtered water. In fact, ALL their water (even bathwater) is carefully filtered through a 3-stage water filter. And I thoroughly wash my hands before touching them or anything that goes inside their cage. There simply isn't any toxin that he could be ingesting, at least nothing that I can pinpoint. And even so, if there were such a toxin, I would think the other birds would be affected too -- and they aren't.

So that leaves vitamin deficiency -- and I honestly can't imagine that is what's happening. In addition to adding a multi-vitamin powder to their seed, along with both wheat-germ and cod-liver oil, I also make sure they have regular access to fresh kale, dried fruit and vegetables (carrots, spinach, etc.), Miracle Meal, and vitamin-infused pellets that are regularly mixed with their seed. And I realize this is debatable, but they also may be producing a very small amount of Vitamin D from the UV lighting overhead. But even without the lighting, they should have more than adequate access to all essential vitamins.

I am completely stumped, and so is my vet. Even though she regularly treats finches and seems very knowledgeable about their care, she suggested I take him to an advanced avian specialist nearby for hospitalization and more extensive testing. But after already spending almost $300 for the first vet's visit, I'm reluctant to invest another $600-700 now -- as much as I love the little guy, and especially not knowing if it even would do any good. I'm hoping to resolve this problem before it becomes an untreatable condition, beyond any hope. But I'm running out of options here.

Has anybody seen this before, and how did you resolve it?

[CandoAviary]

It may not be anything health wise at all. Since the male probably is the most active with courting the hen and teaching the kids he may just drink more due to more activety. Also sometimes the dominant bird of the cage will consume more of everything. Like staking his claim at the top of the pecking order. At least I hope that is all that it is. I would say my males are more active than the hens... always patrolling his territory.

[LuxandLolita]

if he has chicks, i have seen my male(he is a zebra though, not a gouldian) drink TONS of water over long periods of time(weeks), then go and feed the chicks to keep them hydrated. other then that, i don't really know!

[cindy]

First let me say he is stunning, beautiful bird!

Let me ask this, how warm do you have your heat set at? I am in Florida, I noticed if it gets warm, my birds consume and go through water quickly. The air has been off on warmer days and heat goes on if it goes below 68 in the room.

Also to help supplement his diet with vitamins and minerals you can try adding a dish or moxing into the seed a bit of pellets, I use the Zupreem fruit flavored pellet for canary and finch, it contains vitamins and minerals. Try a small bag out first to make sure he likes it, it can be found at PetSmart, Petco and Pet Supermarket. I personally notice a difference in my birds when I use it along with seed, veggies and eggfoods.

[DCbeachboy]

Candace, I sure hope that's the case. It seems logical enough, and he IS definitely a dominant, territorial type male! I guess what concerns me, however, is that his white blood cells are elevated -- indicating that on some level his body seems to be having an immune response against something. But you're right -- it is encouraging that he seems perfectly healthy otherwise -- both visibly and behaviorally, as you can see. It's not as if he's looking or acting even the slightest bit sick.

LuxandLolita -- Yeah, like you I also thought at first maybe it was the heat. The weather did turn cooler here shortly before the symptoms began, so the heat has been running more often -- drying out the air, of course, as you note. But I keep a humidifier running 24/7 to prevent the air from drying out TOO much -- both for my birds as well as myself -- and I cranked it up even higher after these symptoms began. I've been keeping the room humidity around the 40-45% range in recent weeks. But it hasn't made any difference at all. As for the chicks, they were fully weaned a few weeks before the symptoms began, so he's not hydrating them any longer.

Cindy -- thanks, and yes he is. Unfortunately, he knows it. But he was the most incredibly devoted and doting dad you ever saw after the chicks hatched -- right on through their weaning. I was quite proud of him. Both he and his mate had a long, difficult learning curve at first -- as I'm sure many of you recall! But seriously -- after mom and dad finally figured things out, those chicks never could have asked for a better set of parents. It was truly amazing to watch the transformation.

I keep the room temperature at 72ºF usually, although sometimes if it seems too stuffy I'll lower it to 70. I kept it at 68 all later winter, which is perfect for me. But with the new chicks now I've been reluctant to allow the temp to drop quite so low this winter while they're still so young.

Thanks also for the vitamin tip. Yes, I've always provided them with a mix of seed and Dr. Harrison's pellets, which supposedly provide all the vitamins they need. I've noticed he eats the pellets less than the other birds, preferring mainly just the seed from their mix. But I do think he consumes some pellets. And if not, he at least has access to several other sources of vitamins and minerals.

A quick side note on the vitamin deficiency theory: I do know that he tends to gorge on charcoal whenever I add a small amount to their grit mix about once a week. Almost from the moment I add the charcoal, he will eat every bit until it's gone. Usually within a day or two, there's none left. And he's always done that -- which is why I provide them with so very little charcoal. I know that charcoal can help filter any foreign substance -- both toxins AND vitamins -- from their blood, so I thought maybe that was the problem when these symptoms first appeared. But a month ago I stopped providing them with any charcoal at all, and it hasn't made any difference. His symptoms remain, and in fact seem to be worsening now.

Anybody know how long it takes for charcoal to leave the gizzard? Could he simply have consumed SO much that it's going to take his body several months to purge it -- and in the meantime his liver or kidneys are malfunctioning from lack of vitamins?

[kheather]

Wow is he a looker!!! just gorgeous. He looks real healthy in pics.

[DCbeachboy]

Thanks, Heather. I thought it was important to show that he appears and behaves as if nothing's wrong at all. But clearly something's amiss.

A strange new development occurred this morning -- and I hope no one is reading this over breakfast, because I realize it's not exactly a pretty mental image. As soon as I uncovered their cage and they woke up, he released a white, gooey dropping that hung about 6 inches from his vent for a few seconds as it was released, before it finally fell. It looked as if he had a long string of toothpaste coming out of him. He seemed as perplexed by the development as I was -- looking down at it quizzically while it hung there.

Whatever ails him, it seems to be worsening, not improving. Has anybody ever seen this in a finch, and what was it, and how did you resolve it?

[cindy]

was he holding his droppings all night or do you see other droppings under his perch? Change out the paper often and use white paper towel or brown paper see how often this is happening.

He could have something going on with his Pancreas or digestive problems. Just curious was he parent raised or raised by societies?

I would call ladygouldian.com right away to get her opinion, she can best advise you on whether her needs a medication.

[DCbeachboy]

He seemed to be holding the droppings through the night, which isn't normal in itself...though I suspect he may have been doing that in recent days or weeks. He roosts at night on a swing with the rest of his family (mate and 3 chicks) lined up side by side, so it would be difficult to isolate his droppings from the others and determine whether he is having droppings through the night. I can guess, however, based on his location on the roost....I'll give that a try.

The only reason I know that he's having abnormal droppings (and not the other birds) is that I've seen it happen in the daytime -- which I can't view at night. But I do know that his normal behavior is not to hold his droppings through the night....he's definitely not done that in the past.

No, I'm quite certain he was parent-raised, but I'll ask to be sure.

I'll call Larraine, good idea...thanks. Just curious -- have you seen this happen in a finch, Cindy? Did it resolve itself over time, or did it require medication or addition of a dietary supplement of some sort?

[cindy]

It could be a couple of things, Laraine may be able to shed some light on the situation. If not do you have an avain vet in the area that can do a dropping smear or blood work to find out what is going on with him?

I am sorry, I do not recall his age....

[DCbeachboy]

He will be 2 years old in April -- so he is still quite young. Yes, I took him to an avian vet, and she did some smears. I don't believe she did a blood test, however -- I recall her telling me it was almost impossible to get a blood sample from a bird that small without risking too much blood loss.

Even though the tests showed normal levels of bacteria -- nothing unusual at all, she said -- they also showed a high white blood cell count, which she thought may be caused by a urinary tract infection. But 10 days of antibiotics did nothing -- in fact the symptoms have worsened, not improved.

I'm attaching a photo I just took of a fresh dropping from him that I managed to isolate. It definitely seems to be discolored.

I've left a message for Laraine, so hopefully she has some ideas and medications I can try.

[cindy]

It almost looks like the droppings a female has when sitting in the nest so long and then comes out to relieve herself. Hopefully Laraine can answer some of your questions and provide a solution for you.

[Chichireeo]

Oh! The elevated white blood cell count is from a fecal sample?? I thought they had run a blood test, that's why I thought it was strange the vet couldn't tell if it's the liver or the kidney. My bird had blood work done. The vet took it from a toe, by trimming it just a bit too short then stopped the bleeding quickly with a bit of styptic powder. Problem is with very small amount of blood to work with, it needs to be sent to a special lab and it gets expensive. But it will give you detailed information.
When I read about excessive water drinking, I think kidney disease, but that's just from dealing with the disease in people and dogs. And then the probiotics. That also says kidney to me. Maybe there was a one time exposure to toxins in the past? There is always a risk of feeding a contaminated batch of food, especially pet food.

[ilmillu]

same thing happening to my gouldian female which currently is raising a clutch of 4 chicks.. still can't figure out what it is. left a message to laraine about 3 days ago sill no answer.

[kenny66]

have they been wormed? very unusual droppings- canker can produce very large droppings which are easy to treat .Doesnt look like a bacterial infection to me. High white blood cell count is an imune response so something is going on.