Highly excessive water intake

[cindy]

same thing happening to my gouldian female which currently is raising a clutch of 4 chicks.. still can't figure out what it is. left a message to laraine about 3 days ago sill no answer.

This ladygouldian.com
http://ladygouldian.com/

If you can't get Laraine then try Joanne her sister, she is very helpful as well

http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/

[DCbeachboy]

When I read about excessive water drinking, I think kidney disease, but that's just from dealing with the disease in people and dogs. And then the probiotics. That also says kidney to me. Maybe there was a one time exposure to toxins in the past? There is always a risk of feeding a contaminated batch of food, especially pet food.

Wouldn't the other birds be affected if a toxin in their food (or anywhere else in their environment) had caused this? They all eat the same food, and live together in the same cage. He is the only one of my 5 birds with these symptoms. If it IS his kidneys, any damage would be irreversible, right? God knows I would do almost anything within reason to save this little guy. But I'm not convinced that investing in further testing (blood test, etc.) would be worth it, if it only confirms kidney problems that can't be cured. Maybe I'll feel differently if he actually begins to show signs of feeling sick at some point. At least he doesn't seem to be suffering at all, based on his behavior.

have they been wormed? very unusual droppings- canker can produce very large droppings which are easy to treat .Doesnt look like a bacterial infection to me. High white blood cell count is an imune response so something is going on.

No, they haven't been wormed. But the 2 parent birds have been with me for 16 months, and have not been exposed to any other birds at all during this time. Obviously the 3 young chicks have never been around other birds either. Is it even possible they could have developed worms somehow on their own -- without exposure to other birds?

The large droppings only began within the past few days, and occur mainly first thing in the morning -- as he seems to be holding them overnight while roosting, then releasing them after waking up. The original problem that has persisted for almost 6 weeks now is the VERY high water intake and occasional watery droppings several times a day. That problem persists, and had seemed to be worsening for several days....although yesterday he seemed to be drinking just slightly less than in previous days. Maybe. I'll see how he does today.

I've resumed probiotics, and added milk thistle to their diet as well in case it's his liver. The milk thistle has a side effect of acting somewhat as a laxative, so that may be what's going on with the larger poops. The vet had advised me to give him milk thistle for 6 weeks, but I'm beginning to think it is only complicating things further.

[cindy]

Have you noticed any changes in his drinkng based on the temperature....warmer days more, cooler days not so much.

I have a few birds that with the air set at 77, the cup is less full say if the windows are open and it is 72 out. If it is cold and the heat goes on at 68 and is on because we have a cold snap for a few day, the air in the house is a bit dryer than normal, they drink more (We have a heat pump and live in central Florida).

Also does your bird nest sleeep...if so so birds do not soil in the nest but wait until they out in the cage to relieve themselves.

Large parrot often do not go while sleeping but relieve themselves in a large mass in the morning.

You said these are parent raised, where the parents parent raised or raised by socieities? Can your vet do a fecal smear to rule out any parasite?

[DCbeachboy]

Both the room temperature and humidity are staying rather constant -- despite the temperature outside. Even when the heat is running more often on colder days, a humidifier prevents the indoor air from drying out.

No, they have no nest and all 5 birds sleep cuddled tightly together on the same roost. They've never held their droppings overnight except when they were nesting -- and it's been more than 2 months since they've had a nest.

A fecal smear has been done already, and it showed nothing abnormal in terms of bacteria, parasites, etc. And after almost 6 weeks with these symptoms, it would seem unusual for none of the other birds to be affected by now if a pathogen really were the culprit. But I suppose anything is possible at this point.

[cindy]

Have you consulted either/both ladygouldian.com or ladygouldinfinch.com to get their take on the situations. I would email them and include everything the vet did and the symptoms including the pictures.

[nixity]

Have you tried getting in touch with Lainey about the Milk Thistle?
She might also be able to offer other suggestions if this is a kidney issue.

[DCbeachboy]

Have you consulted either/both ladygouldian.com or ladygouldinfinch.com to get their take on the situations. I would email them and include everything the vet did and the symptoms including the pictures.

Yes, I've done so. Laraine is checking with a vet she knows to see what he advises. Am awaiting his verdict.

Have you tried getting in touch with Lainey about the Milk Thistle? She might also be able to offer other suggestions if this is a kidney issue.

Yes, and as it happens, he is her grandson, as she called him! I hadn't realized she had raised Opie's parents. She didn't think the milk thistle would necessarily hurt anything, but in this particular case she wasn't convinced it would help, either -- mainly because he both appears and acts perfectly normal otherwise. A finch with serious liver or kidney problems would be showing visible signs of it by now, after 6 weeks, she said.

She seemed to think salt might be causing him to drink excessively in this way, because salt often is irresistible to birds and if they have access to any they often will eat far more than they should. But he doesn't have access to anything with salt, and I hadn't changed their diet at all before this began (other than switching from the BRU breeding formula to the maintenance/resting season formula). The vet I took him to did say that charcoal is high in sodium -- so if this is true maybe his gorging on charcoal is the culprit here after all. Yet I haven't provided them any at all in almost 3 weeks, and his symptoms significantly worsened in recent days, at least until yesterday. He seemed perhaps slightly better yesterday and so far this morning....but too early to say for sure.

Lainey advised ending the thistle, and continuing with probiotics for a while. I'd already mixed the thistle in with their week's seed, so after this batch is out I'll probably do as she advises. She also recommended switching to Kaytee Hi-Cal grit and Primal Defense probiotics...which I've ordered.

[nixity]

Yes - Opie came from Nicoli and Georgina, both birds from her aviary that she bred

[cindy]

Campylobacter causes volumious droppings or what they call popcorm droppings....this can be passed from socieities to gouldian and so on.

Also...just curious what type of substrate/tray liner do you use on a rgular basis?

[DCbeachboy]

Yes - Opie came from Nicoli and Georgina, both birds from her aviary that she bred

Well, she is one proud grandma.

Campylobacter causes volumious droppings or what they call popcorm droppings....this can be passed from socieities to gouldian and so on. Also...just curious what type of substrate/tray liner do you use on a rgular basis?

He hasn't been exposed to any societies, though, at any point in his young life. I use newspaper for tray liner, and it's not accessible to the birds. It is about 2 inches below the cage's bottom grate, which I clean daily. I also haven't seen either him or his mate go down to the cage bottom in nearly a year -- they stay in the upper half of the cage at all times.

[cindy]

Dave, were his parent exposed to socieities, were they fostered?

The reason I ased about your material you line the trays with is some people use corn cobb bedding (cellulose), if gotten wet or wet food sits to long, does not dry out it will mold and can cause aspergillosis to form. It gets fuzzy and the birds can stir up the spores by flying, landing near the area..spores are releae and can land on foods. It takes very little to make a bird ill, the toxins can interfer with the kidneys, digestive tract and breathing if inhaled.

Newspaper is great, it dries quickly if wet and that should not be an issue....just trying to figure out if it is kidney what could be causing the issue...then their is the issue of the droppigs.

[nixity]

His parents were not fostered. Lainey (like me) does have societies but (like me) keeps them separate from her other birds. This line of birds though has always been terrific parents and neither she (to my knowledge) nor I ever needed to use fosters. They were terrific parents always.

Even if he had been exposed in some way, those two diseases are almost always killers and this bird wouldn't have gotten this far if he had been exposed; likewise, he probably would not have been able to raise any chicks to fledging because that's how deadly these diseases are to Gouldians.

[cindy]

I bought Campylobacter up due to the droppings as well as someone earlier mentioned canker. I actually read in one of the medical guides about the Campylobacter/dropping size.

It is good to know he can from good stock and parents that raised their young well.

Tiffany, could the droppings be a separate issue from the excessive water drinking issue?

[DCbeachboy]

Yes, he came from excellent stock, and he was the most amazingly devoted, doting dad you ever saw after he finally got the hang of it. Maybe a tad over-protective, but then I'm guilty of that myself! Tiffany's right -- he truly was a terrific dad to these chicks....no doubt about that. He handled easily 70 if not 80 percent of the feedings in the nest before the chicks fledged -- and even afterward, until they were fully weaned. So there is no way he had anything at that point, or the chicks would never have made it.

But that's an interesting question about the abnormal droppings vs. water intake. I'll let those far more knowledgeable than me address that, but my hunch is that the 10 days of antibiotics, followed by the addition of milk thistle -- and now a 2nd round of probiotics -- to his diet have probably caused the gooey, sometimes brownish/green droppings. If that's the case, the only relation they have to the high water intake is that they are a side effect caused by a series of attempts to resolve the original problem.

I just recalled another odd early symptom that I haven't seen in the past couple of weeks: he seemed to regurgitate numerous times throughout the day for a day or two, a few weeks after he began drinking so much water. He would do this in the way he used to do when he was preparing to feed the chicks, and shake his head afterward. But that lasted no more than a day or two, and I haven't seen him do that since.

...someone earlier mentioned canker

Does this sound like canker to anyone else? I'm not familiar with this, but am researching it now.

[cindy]

Dave, I hope you can find out what is wrong, he sounds like a wonderful bird. I can only imagine how concerned you are.